01:28 < Drainedsoul> winny: Did you not read what dx said?  You trying to talk to someone who apparently isn't there is much more annoying/spammy than the background noise of him connecting/disconnecting
01:29 < winny> :)
01:29 < winny> thanks did not see scrollback
01:30 < winny> (because it scrolled oof the screen :P)
01:30 < dx> yup, indeed more annoying. not a big deal imo, but this really is the third time i check back this channel because it had pending messages, and it was just that
01:31 < winny> i agree
01:32 < expir3dcow> afj is spamming logging in and out xD
01:32 < dx> pls
01:32 < winny> lal, not eveybody got the memo
01:50 < jython234> STOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
01:53 < dx> well, since some people are clearly unable to understand the concept of "being AFK with bad internet"...
01:53 < dx> here's something completely unrelated but slightly interesting
01:53 < dx> http://dual-ec-drbg.eu/
01:58 < winny> i have a lovely bouncer
01:59 < jython234> ikr
01:59 < winny> I pay $1/mo for it (tiny openvz vps)
02:01 < jython234> i pay $0/mo
02:02 < winny> lovely
02:02 < jython234> yes
02:24 < jython234> a higher level of spam
02:50 < Drainedsoul> dx: Wtf that website makes noise!  That's so 90s
02:50 < dx> Drainedsoul: indeed
05:37 < dreadiscool> What do UUID's look like now, with the -'s?
05:38 <+SpaceManiac> 8-4-4-4-12
05:39 < dreadiscool> Thanks
06:13 < deltab> there's probably a library you can use for handling it
06:29 <+fragmer> SpaceManiac, I'm curious, has Glowstone been affected by Bukkit's untimely demise? Or are you continuing?
06:29 <+SpaceManiac> fragmer: it's been smothered in attention
06:29 <+SpaceManiac> the project is continuing & seems to be the sole active Bukkit implementation
06:30 <+fragmer> Nice
06:30 <+SpaceManiac> a bunch of people are working to spec out a replacement to the Bukkit API, which I'm following along with & will likely support
06:31 <+fragmer> Hopefully some good will ultimately come of this 
06:31 <+fragmer> Heh I see you've got a whole heap of pull requests this week
06:31 < dx> SpaceManiac: feels so good to see glowstone getting so much attention :3
06:32 <+SpaceManiac> I had to actually write instructions on how to do PRs!
06:32 < dx> :D
06:33 < dx> SpaceManiac: could create a CONTRIBUTING.md file https://github.com/blog/1184-contributing-guidelines
06:33 <+SpaceManiac> yeah, that's planned
06:34 <+SpaceManiac> turt2live of ex-Bukkit is helping handle PRs
06:36 <+fragmer> Meanwhile, I'm still beating the deadest of Minecraft horses, Classic :P
06:37 <+fragmer> I should find a new hobby
07:09 < Not-f47f> [Glowstone] SpaceManiac pushed 1 commit [+9/-0/±3] http://git.io/zxraJw
07:09 < Not-f47f> [Glowstone] jkcclemens 8d9cf2f - Added block placement handling for several blocks (see #119).
07:12 < Grum> SpaceManiac: i assume people have to sign-off their commits to ack to a CLA?
07:13 < Grum> aaand they do not, enjoy getting in the same mess when someone decides to go ragequit
07:13 <+SpaceManiac> MIT license
07:14 < Grum> matters nothing, you depend on Bukkit
07:14 < Grum> or rather; that is a 'legal grey area'
07:15 < Grum> because some court has already dubbed 'an implentation of a subtantial api' a 'non original work' (IANAL)
07:15 < Grum> the taint is big :(
07:16 <+SpaceManiac> IANAL or a big fan of the GPL either, but as far as I can gather my only incompliance with the GPL is not including its text in my distribution, which I intend to rectify
07:16 <+fragmer> Grum: are you representing Mojang's opinion when you say that a 100% written-from-scratch Minecraft-interoperable server is a non-original work?
07:16 <+fragmer> This is the first time I've heard anyone claim that
07:16 < Grum> fragmer: no, this has nothing to do with that, its about using GPL Bukkit
07:17 < Grum> you can use small parts GPL code as long as your code is an 'original works' (compared to what you use) without being GPL-compatible yourself (IANAL)
07:17 < Grum> this is in the c world, using GPL'd headerfiles for example
07:18 < Grum> in theory a set of Java interfaces could be considered equal (IANAL)
07:18 < Grum> though Bukkit contains quite some bootstrapping code (so actually functional code, not just an interface)
07:18 <+fragmer> ah I see
07:19 < Grum> I also love how you completely not read what I said and instantly go 'OMG AS MOJANG REPRESENTATIEV DO YOU [INSERT HORRIBLE STUPID CLAIM]'
07:20 <+fragmer> Well, I think at this point Mojang employees could preface their messages with "(this opinion is my own and not representative of blah blah)" :P
07:20 < Grum> then i should ask you the question, do you think anyone can state anything but their own opinion?
07:20 < Grum> and if you disagree, then you logically must believe in god
07:21 < Fysac> ... what?
07:21 < Grum> (because then all priests that pretend to 'speak for god' according to you speak truthful and thus god must exist)
07:22 < Grum> unless they are just stating their own opinion about something they have in their head
07:22 < Grum> (which is the more likely case :D)
07:22 < Grum> (and it still might be true, but i doubt there is a hivemind going on)
07:23 < Fysac> there's a fallacy in there somewhere, but it's too late for me to have these kinds of discussions :P
07:23 < Grum> ofcourse there is, that's the point :)
07:23 < Grum> and because there is, i must be speaking my own opinion
07:23 <+fragmer> I'm just worried about my own efforts (working on Minecraft-interoperable software since 2009) may be undermined if your opinion is representative of Mojang's
07:23 < Grum> how else could i fail if i were to speak from a hivemind? ;D
07:24 <+fragmer> But I misunderstood what you were saying, so nevermind
07:24 < Grum> its ok ;)
07:24 < Grum> i was just being a bit pendantic
07:25 < Grum> if anything this whole situation is making me even more sarcastic than ever >.>
07:26 < Grum> i think the 'real' issue is Bukkit being GPL and not having a CLA
07:26 <+fragmer> Somewhat on-topic: any update on the official modding API? I apologize if you get asked this too often :P
07:26 < Grum> nope
07:26 < Grum> but we're getting close to having blocks cleaned up, which is rather awesome
07:26 < Grum> i mean, the game is about blocks =)
07:27 <+fragmer> I like blocks.
07:29 < dx> fragmer: were you expecting him to say they are rushing it for 1.9? :D
07:29 <+fragmer> Well, there's always hope! :P
07:29 <+fragmer> I thought that perhaps the recent events have added motivation
07:29 < dx> probably, but something tells me you're not going to hear that from grum, who always wants to do things the right way
07:30 < dx> even if it takes 10 years *cough*
07:30 < Drainedsoul> [22:17] <Grum> then i should ask you the question, do you think anyone can state anything but their own opinion? <= what kind of a question is this?  It is trivially demonstrable that people can state not their own opinion.
07:30 < dx> Drainedsoul: let's not get meta-pedantic now
07:31 < Grum> Drainedsoul: then where to these so called original opinions come from?
07:31 <+fragmer> Ah. I asked because I remember (a couple years ago) that Erik was hailed as One-Who-Shall-Bring-Us-The-API, when he was hired :P
07:31 < Grum> i guess priests again, they have a connection with god! :D
07:31 < Grum> rushing things is always bad
07:31 < Grum> most certainly so with an api
07:32 <+SpaceManiac> You can also state *someone else's* opinion!
07:32 < dx> fragmer: shall bring us the api, when it's ready™
07:32 < Drainedsoul> Grum: That's orthogonal to the point.  You can state your own opinions, or those of others.
07:32 < Drainedsoul> You're not locked into one or the other.
07:32 < Grum> SpaceManiac: in theory you could, but you would give your impression of it
07:32 <+fragmer> Before or after Half-Life 3? :P
07:32 < dx> by the way, there's a pending trademark application for soon™, http://www.trademarks411.com/marks/86376571-soon
07:33 < dx> mojang might get in legal trouble if they keep delaying the api (jk)
07:33 < expir3dcow|away> yup
07:33 <+fragmer> If anyone deserves the trademark Soon, it'd be Valve or Blizzard
07:33 < dx> indeed
07:33 < Grum> but we're not delaying anything
07:33 < dx> jk means 'just kidding'
07:33 < Grum> if there would be a delay that would mean we should have something shippable or have given a date
14:35 < Not-f47f> [node-minecraft-protocol] roblabla pushed 3 commits to master [+0/-0/±3] http://git.io/XPZPog
14:35 < Not-f47f> [node-minecraft-protocol] roblabla cb24696 - Fix tests involving the server jar
14:35 < Not-f47f> [node-minecraft-protocol] roblabla 78f0ea8 - Fix test for 1.7.10 compatibility
14:35 < Not-f47f> [node-minecraft-protocol] overjt 2541934 - Fixed uuid
14:39 < Not-f47f> [node-minecraft-protocol] roblabla pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] http://git.io/tIkFcQ
14:39 < Not-f47f> [node-minecraft-protocol] roblabla a6b1e10 - Remove useless toString(10) in UUID
16:20 < Not-c7fb> [node-minecraft-protocol] roblabla pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±2] http://git.io/_wCm4g
16:20 < Not-c7fb> [node-minecraft-protocol] roblabla 06ea770 - Release 0.12.2
17:57 < Fysac> ls
18:00 < Bibl> have a quick question since i've been busy ever since 1.8 came out
18:00 < Bibl> do I need to redo packet parsing for my bot?
18:00 < Bibl> or is everything basically the same
18:00 < SinZ> the structure is the same, just new/changed/removed packets
18:02 < shoghicp> and add the compression feature
18:28 < TkTech> Fysac: porn not_porn projects .. .
19:54 < shoghicp> it starts again...
19:55 < shoghicp> 1.7.6 protocol: 5
19:55 < shoghicp> 1.8 protocol: 47
19:55 < shoghicp> they should have a way to split snapshot protocols from release protocols
19:55 < shoghicp> like a bit set :S
19:56 <+SpaceManiac> at least it's a varint now instead of limited to a byte
19:56 <+SpaceManiac> so maybe they plan to just increment it forever starting from here out
19:57 < roblabla> watch them switch it to a varlong for 1.9
19:57 < roblabla> :>
19:57 < shoghicp> ^
19:58 < shoghicp> then it'll change to a string, like inventory windows
19:59 < roblabla> haha
19:59 < roblabla> and then we'll start seeing protocol version "523-pre-WIP-4"
20:00 < shoghicp> then SemVer protocol versions >:)
20:00 < roblabla> BTW, is there a website showing packet changes between different 1.7 versions ?
20:00 < roblabla> kind of like burger, but up-to-date :P
20:00  * roblabla misses burger vitrine so much
20:00 < shoghicp> hmm
20:00 <+SpaceManiac> I think you'd have to look at the wiki history
20:00 < shoghicp> that was horrible
20:00 < roblabla> yeah, I've been doing that, but it's a pain
20:01 < roblabla> And wiki can be wrong
20:01 < roblabla> Burger Vitrine was just the decompiled packet code, so it being wrong is extremely unlikely :P
20:01 < shoghicp> well, at least looking at the wiki diff and the page itself shows formatting errors that can be fixed
20:01 < Aragas> oh god why varlong
20:02 < roblabla> Aragas: why not ? :3
20:02 < roblabla> it's totally not 4 more wasted bytes.
20:02 < Aragas> because how to read and write it
20:02 < Aragas> so laaame
20:02 <+SpaceManiac> the same, but bigger limit
20:02 < roblabla> Aragas:don't complain, you're not writing a javascript client/server
20:03 < roblabla> I have no way to store longs :<
20:03 < Aragas> hm, i should...
20:03 < roblabla> This is how I store longs : [lowBits, highBits]
20:03 < Aragas> use two ints, hardcore, lol
20:03 < roblabla> exactly.
20:03 < shoghicp> I remember the pain to encode/decode the Position type using two int32...
20:03 < Aragas> lol
20:03 < shoghicp> and that was yesterday
20:03 < roblabla> DIdn't even implement the position type yesterday
20:04 < roblabla> *yet
20:04 < roblabla> bleigh
20:04 < shoghicp> who knows what will happen today, just crashed Minecraft
20:04 < Aragas> my whole handling code is now just trash
20:04 < Aragas> because new vars and dunno where they are gone
20:04 < roblabla> I love how the "base" packet structure can now change depending on state
20:05 < Aragas> i'm exacly where i was 6 monts ago
20:05 < Aragas> yes. This is too much
20:06 < Aragas> i think craft.net will not survive this, lol
20:06 < roblabla> Really ?
20:06 < roblabla> that was my reference implementation ;(
20:06 < Aragas> rewritings
20:06 < Aragas> and who will do that
20:06 < roblabla> Haha
20:07 < Aragas> i'm still trying to properly handle all packets without error
20:07 < Aragas> man this is pain
20:07 <+SpaceManiac> I'm still maintaining Glowstone which does packet things, but the packet structure is sliiiightly messy
20:07 < roblabla> Well, I'm planning on keeping node-minecraft-protocol up-to-date, but since the upstream maintainer is now 100% unresponsive, it's kind of annoying.
20:08 < Aragas> winter is here
20:08 < Aragas> not all projects will survive this
20:08 < roblabla> haha
20:08 < roblabla> I saved node-minecraft-protocol too many times from death.
20:08 < roblabla> I shall not falter here.
20:09 < roblabla> (Although 1.7 did sever damage)
20:09 < roblabla> I think 1.7 was the most cataclystic update.
20:09 < roblabla> Oh, and 1.3
20:10 < TkTech> roblabla: Sorry, I lost interest in it and I think sadimusi is done with it as well
20:10 < TkTech> The burger has been eaten
20:10 < roblabla> :O
20:10 < roblabla> TkTech: well, I forked it some time ago in hopes to give it a small blow of life
20:10 < roblabla> (At least reviving the packet structure part :P)
20:10 < roblabla> But I have yet to do it.
20:11 < GauHelldragon> a breath of life?
20:11 < Aragas> glad i started after 1.7
20:11 < roblabla> yeh, whatev.
20:11 < roblabla> Aragas: haha yeh. 1.3 added encryption. You have no idea how many custom clients that killed.
20:12 <+SpaceManiac> Nom nom.
20:12 < Aragas> lol. and now we have compression, a new killer
20:12 < roblabla> meh, if people got encryption, compression s hould be no trouble.
20:12 < roblabla> I really dislike how they implemented it though.
20:12 < Aragas> i still get decompression errors with chunks in 1.7
20:13 < Aragas> one per few thousands
20:13 < roblabla> Really ? I don't think it's that hard though
20:13 < roblabla> IIRC, it's just a simple deflate right ?
20:13 < Aragas> nah, i'm just a good coder
20:13 <+SpaceManiac> Aragas: is it "size too big"?
20:14 < Aragas> nope, too small. just don't get enough data to read chunk
20:14 <+SpaceManiac> odd
20:14 < roblabla> ._.
20:14 < roblabla> MFW BurgerVitrine actually decompiles things itself.
20:14 < roblabla> Dem people be crazey.
20:14 <+SpaceManiac> I think the way you can't (non-hackily) tell if a packet sent by the client was sent when they thought encryption was enabled or not is a little sad
20:14 <+SpaceManiac> but it's not that important in practice
20:15 < roblabla> SpaceManiac:Like an echo packet.
20:15 < Aragas> we need rewrite minecraft in assembler
20:15 < roblabla> Actually it's possible
20:15 < roblabla> With the keepalive packet
20:16 <+SpaceManiac> You can "detect" it by interpreting their packet both ways, and taking whichever is most valid
20:16 < roblabla> yeh
20:16 < Aragas> i mean, we are at the last level. assembler is our friend now
20:16 < roblabla> Aragas: I refuse.
20:16 < roblabla> I'm OK with rewriting it in C.
20:16 < roblabla> But ASM ? That'll be done without me :D
20:17 < roblabla> Also, I don't know who'll be the one in charge of world generation, but I'll pass.
20:17 < Aragas> perlin in asm? ez
20:17 < roblabla> Actually, did anyone write a "close enough" open source world generator ?
20:18 < Aragas> nah, who likes vanilla generator :DDD
20:18 < roblabla> (honnest to god question)
20:18 <+SpaceManiac> Spout Vanilla was pretty good-looking.
20:18 <+SpaceManiac> I hope to port it to Glowstone someday
20:18 < roblabla> Spout had the generator done ?
20:18 < roblabla> I didn't know they went that far.
20:19 < shoghicp> I only got past noise generation and some islands with trees
20:20 < shoghicp> but I had to do other things then :S
20:20 < roblabla> https://github.com/SpoutDev/Vanilla/blob/master/src/main/java/org/spout/vanilla/world/generator/VanillaGenerators.java < ooh
20:20 < shoghicp> Is Minecraft 1.8 converting old Anvil worlds when it opens them?
20:20 < Aragas> i tried fo fill chunks with stone. Close enough
20:20 < roblabla> shogchips:they changed the format again ?
20:21 < shoghicp> I mean, the blockId << 4 | data conversion
20:21 < Aragas> wha?
20:21 < shoghicp> or do they convert it on the fly?
20:21  * roblabla has no idea what you're talking about.
20:21 < Aragas> is that new in 1.8?
20:21 < roblabla> Then again, I haven't been very active.
20:22 < shoghicp> Block id section is now a unsigned short (little endian) per a block
20:22 < shoghicp> The block id is equal to (id << 4) | data
20:22 < Drainedsoul> does...that VanillaGenerators class have globals? :(
20:22 < shoghicp> http://wiki.vg/Protocol#Chunk_Data
20:22 < roblabla> Drainedsoul:well yeah
20:22 < roblabla> Drainedsoul:they're constants
20:22 < roblabla> Nothing wrong with that
20:22 < Aragas> ftfs, that my third chunk stuff rewrite
20:23 < shoghicp> well, I'll have to convert it on the fly
20:23 < shoghicp> I had to do the same for McRegion -> Anvil, and Anvil -> McRegion
20:23 < roblabla> oh
20:23 < roblabla> Sponge is back in 1.8
20:23 < roblabla> awesum.
20:24 < roblabla> That's enough of a reason for me to start playing minecraft again.
20:25 < Drainedsoul> roblabla: But they're not just constants, they're actual objects.
20:25 < roblabla> Drainedsoul:point being ?
20:25 < Bibl> "we need rewrite minecraft in assembler"
20:25 < Bibl> Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
20:25 < Aragas> Hm. Maybe i should play 1.8, not writing clients for it
20:25 < Bibl> ewewewewewewewewew
20:25 < roblabla> This part of code is never going to be reloaded, it ain't a plugin.
20:25 < Bibl> You'll never be able to write a big program in asm better than a good c++ compiler
20:26 < Bibl> not even worth it
20:26 < Drainedsoul> ^
20:26 < Drainedsoul> roblabla: Never (tm)
20:26 < roblabla> Bibl: but writing ASM is swaaaaaag
20:26 < Aragas> SWAG
20:26 < Bibl> roblabla: it's also a giant waste of time :p
20:26 < roblabla> I write Java Bytecode by hand :3
20:26 < Bibl> sometimes
20:26 < roblabla> (now you're allowed to shoot me)
20:26 < Aragas> exactly
20:26 < Bibl> when i get annoyed with the java compiler
20:26 < Aragas> No more 1.9 with new varlongs
20:26 < Bibl> i sometimes write bits of code myself
20:27 < Bibl> stuff like
20:27 < Drainedsoul> Bibl: To be clear, you don't just mean that a person can't write/maintain a large asm program better than a compiler, you also mean that a person probably can't generate better asm, correct?
20:27 < roblabla> Want to see the greatest piece of code ever ?
20:27 < Bibl> addObject(new ObjectThing().voidCall())
20:27 < Bibl> cant do that
20:27 < Bibl> so i add a dup2
20:27 < Bibl> instead of dup
20:27 < Bibl> stuff like that
20:27 < roblabla> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root#Overview_of_the_code
20:28 < Bibl> drained a person wont be able to keep track of that much code
20:28 < Drainedsoul> roblabla: That code doesn't do anything.
20:28 < roblabla> Bibl:actually, it depends on the flavour of ASM you're using. NASM is pretty workable.
20:28 < roblabla> Drainedsoul:it does.
20:28 < Bibl> it will become unmanagable
20:28 < Drainedsoul> i  = * ( long * ) &y;
20:28 < Drainedsoul> this is UB
20:28 < Bibl> compilers today produce much better code
20:28 < Drainedsoul> the C standard doesn't require that the program containing this do anything at all
20:29 < roblabla> Drainedsoul: Stop thinking C Standard and start thinking GCC m8
20:29 < roblabla> who cares what the standard says when every implementation doesn't follow it.
20:29 < Drainedsoul> lol
20:29 < Aragas> lide gcc 1.9?
20:29 < Aragas> like
20:29 < roblabla> I mean if we wrote HTML to the standard, the web would be pretty damn uninteresting.
20:29 < Drainedsoul> I take it you've never been stabbed in the back by a compiler @ -O3
20:30 < roblabla> Drainedsoul:trust me, I have been enough times.
20:30 < Drainedsoul> the standard provides memcpy and char * aliasing so you can do exactly what that code is doing with predictable results
20:30 < GauHelldragon> weird
20:30 < Bibl> how can a compiler screw you over?
20:30 < roblabla> Bibl: by using non-standard stuff.
20:30 < Drainedsoul> if the compiler sees that code exhibits UB on certain code paths
20:30 < Drainedsoul> it can assume those code paths are never taken
20:30 < Bibl> ub?
20:30 < Drainedsoul> Undefined Behaviour
20:31 < Bibl> whats that
20:31 < Drainedsoul> for example, C compilers at high optimization levels, after seeing you dereference a pointer
20:31 < Drainedsoul> will look ahead and just delete all comparisons of that pointer to null
20:31 < Drainedsoul> because the standard states that dereferencing a null pointer is UB, therefore if you dereferenced the pointer, it can't be null
20:31 < roblabla> And that's a fun way to break programs in all sort of ways.
20:31 < Bibl> is that not a bug?
20:31 < roblabla> (poorly-written programs)
20:32 < Drainedsoul> Bibl: UB?  Yes, that's the point
20:32 < roblabla> Bibl:if you do something that has an UB, you have a bug
20:32 < Bibl> no, the compiler
20:32 < roblabla> Bibl:nope
20:32 < Drainedsoul> How would that be a bug?
20:32 < Bibl> shouldn't it recognise this ub thing
20:32 < Drainedsoul> The C standard says the behaviour is undefined
20:32 < Drainedsoul> therefore the compiler is not obligated to do anything
20:32 < Drainedsoul> it could emit assembly that causes global thermonuclear war, and be ISO C compliant
20:32 < roblabla> Bibl:it can't know a pointer is null whwen being dereferenced
20:32 < roblabla> a pointer is just an int.
20:32 < roblabla> a null pointer is 0
20:32 < Drainedsoul> a pointer is not an int
20:33 < roblabla> who cares, it's to exemplify
20:33 < Drainedsoul> the standard does not place restrictions on the width of int such that it can store a pointer
20:33 < Bibl> anyone here have/had a minecraft gamepack analyser
20:33 < roblabla> Drainedsoul:size_t. There. Happy ?
20:34 < Bibl> that got buttfked by 1.7 and 1.8?
20:34 < roblabla> "gamepack analyzer" ?
20:34 < Drainedsoul> the standard doesn't say size_t can hold a pointer.  maybe you're looking for intptr_t
20:34 < Drainedsoul> on segmented architectures sizeof(size_t)!=sizeof(void *) can definitely be true
20:34 < roblabla> size_t can hold an array indice.
20:34 < roblabla> IIRC
20:34 < roblabla> Although I guess intptr_t fits the role nicer
20:35 < Bibl> stuff like http://λ.pw/bji
20:35 < roblabla> dat punny-code URL
20:35 < Bibl> sharex is the best
20:35 < Bibl> friends image hosting site
20:35 < Bibl> started from a
20:35 < Bibl> now we here
20:35 < Bibl> a through to bji
20:36 < Bibl> anyone analyse gamepacks to create mappings?
20:36 < Aragas> wat
20:37 < Bibl> is that a no?
20:37 < Bibl> like MCP
20:37 < Bibl> but not retarded
20:37 < Aragas> something like this exist?
20:37 < Aragas> lol
20:37 < Bibl> well i made mine
20:37 < Bibl> so did darkstorm
20:37 < Bibl> darkstorms analyser was for pre 1.7
20:37 < Bibl> they it broke
20:37 < Bibl> mine was 1.7+
20:38 < Bibl> then 1.8 broke it
20:38 < Bibl> because they added 700 classes
20:38 < Aragas> mcp was really retarded. Still dunno how to use it
20:38 < Bibl> dude
20:38 < Bibl> its even easier now
20:38 < Bibl> just decompile.bat
20:38 < Aragas> like one-click?
20:38 < Aragas> man
20:38 < Bibl> ye
20:38 < Aragas> that like icloud for me
20:38 < Aragas> so glad
20:39 < roblabla> except it fails with 1.8 last time I checked.
20:39 < roblabla> Anyway, Bibl, I guess yours is closed-source right ?
20:39 < Bibl> yeah
20:39 < Aragas> aaaaand 1.8 has rendering errors
20:39 < Bibl> i believe in free software blah blah
20:39 < roblabla> :( sad panda much.
20:40 < Bibl> but this took me a long time to write
20:40 < Bibl> i can give snippets
20:40 < Bibl> but not a full proj
20:40 < Bibl> http://pastebin.com/0u2bQymP
20:41 < Bibl> just testing can anyone access this page : https://bitbucket.org/0xJAVA/byte-engineer
20:41 < roblabla> I'm making my own sorta-analyzer, trying to extract packets into a simple json format, given a .jar
20:41 < roblabla> erm, I can
20:41 < Bibl> good
20:41 < roblabla> And have access to source and all
20:41 < Drainedsoul> lol closed source
20:41 < Bibl> god
20:41 < Bibl> good*
20:41 < Bibl> what drained?
20:42 < roblabla> :O ERMERGERD
20:42 < roblabla> Bibl:why did you not give me this link sooner ;_;
20:42 < Bibl> wot
20:42 < Bibl> this is like a year old
20:42 < Bibl> bytetools 
20:42 < Bibl> then bytetools 2
20:42 < Bibl> then byte engineer
20:42 < Bibl> where we aim to write less shit code every update
20:44 < roblabla> I've been looking for a *good* bytecode analyzing library for a while now
20:44 < roblabla> (No, I don't consider ASM or javassist to be good)
20:44 < Aragas> would be cool if it could use templates or automate-writings packets classed
20:44 < Bibl> it uses asm
20:44 < Bibl> asm is good
20:45 < Bibl> javaassist is for scrubs omg
20:45 < roblabla> well, ASM is good
20:45 < roblabla> but it's hard to work with
20:45 < roblabla> javassist is weird.
20:45 < Bibl> i refuse to use the event system
20:45 < Aragas> i'm too yount fot dat shiet
20:45 < Bibl> its too "scattered"
20:45 < Aragas> young
20:45 < Bibl> young fo wot
20:45 < Bibl> im the best
20:45 < Bibl> in the world
20:45 < Bibl> nerd.
20:45 < Aragas> :DDD
20:46 < roblabla> Aragas: there's no age for bytecode analysis
20:46 < roblabla> It's a completely safe practice :D
20:46 < Aragas> i have not any beard
20:46 < roblabla> Fun Fact : USing javassist to break a running bukkit is a lot of fun as well.
20:46 < roblabla> (been there, done that)
20:47 < Bibl> when i get lectured on why inline java is a bad idea by someone using javaassist who doesnt know about bytecode
20:47 < Bibl> im just like bish dont kill my vibe
20:48 < roblabla> Bibl:hahaha
20:48 < Bibl> inline bytecode in java*
20:48 < Bibl> mb
20:49 < roblabla> Oh
20:49 < roblabla> Found it !
20:49 < roblabla> Good ol' scala project to extract packet info :D
20:50 < belak> What does the mc client use to display usernames on the server when you're viewing the server list?
20:51 < roblabla> belak:it's sent by the server in the ping packet
20:52 < roblabla> https://gist.github.com/thinkofdeath/6927216
20:52 < roblabla> belak:look at "players"
20:52 < Aragas> where is the coders-graveyard?
20:52 < Aragas> wanna die
20:52 < roblabla> http://wiki.vg/Server_List_Ping#Ping_Process even better :D
20:53 < roblabla> Aragas:don't do that :<
20:53 < roblabla> Coders graveyard... let's see...
20:56 < roblabla> belak:is byte-engineer on a maven repository ?
20:57 < roblabla> gonna use it
21:03 < Bibl> urm
21:03 < Bibl> i only used gradle because someone told me to
21:03 < Bibl> so i duno
21:05 < TkTech> roblabla: What do you mean? (re Burger) Why would it not disassemble the JAR itself?
21:07 < MrARM-Away> Quick packet compare? 
21:16 < Bibl> ever have homework that you just really cant find the motivation to do?
21:16 < Bibl> like i have a lot
21:16 < Bibl> but this one piece
21:16 < Bibl> i just can't be bothered at all
21:35 < belak> roblabla: so, you need to be logged in to query that?
21:36 < belak> Actually no...
21:36 < belak> Hm
21:37 < roblabla> TkTech: I thought it used fernflower
21:37 < roblabla> or something like that
21:37 < Bibl> http://i.imgur.com/Rhut2df.png
21:37 < Bibl> hehehe
21:37 < roblabla> the hell ?
21:37 < roblabla> XD
21:38 < Bibl> friend is working on the ui
21:38 < Bibl> for the launch tab
21:38 < Bibl> i did the profiles tab
21:38 < Bibl> logo is 3 months old from another friend
21:38 < Bibl> http://λ.pw/bjp
21:51 < TkTech> roblabla: It predates the existence of fernflower, and long before fernflower became open source
21:51 < TkTech> roblabla: It also doesn't need to decompile, it just needs to disassemble. It's parsing patterns in the bytecode, nothing complex
22:16 < dx> SirCmpwn: hey! wanna join #inferno in esper? they are starting a .net server and irrationally picking some awful .net library as a base (C#raft, implements minecraft 1.4 lol)
22:16 <+SirCmpwn> sure
22:16 < dx> that was quick
22:18 <+SirCmpwn> dx: after seeing that commit I'm immediately convinced that this team does not have what it takes
22:18 < dx> SirCmpwn: this is so doomed
22:19 < dx> SirCmpwn: might as well enjoy telling them how doomed it is
22:19 <+SirCmpwn> after the controversey I'm thinking about starting my own server project
22:19 < dx> i actually suggested #nextlevel to add craft.net to the google doc, but they ignored it because "mono is slow"
22:20 < dx> and well they are all java fanboys, anyway
22:20 < dx> and mostly forge / NMS fanboys too
22:20 < dx> err. s/nextlevel/nextstep/
22:20 < dx> i'm surprised glowstone turned out to be so sucessful, all the forge fanboys in #nextstep seemed to indicate otherwise
22:21 < dx> but hey, there is definitely *some* interest in a C# implementation, so that's cool
22:23 < TkTech> > Mono is slow
22:24 < TkTech> Coming from Minecraft players?
22:24 < dx> HEH
22:24 <+SirCmpwn> if I was going to build a server to replace bukkit, it might not be in C#
22:24 <+SirCmpwn> I would probably consider Go and C/C++ first
22:25 < TkTech> If you're replacing bukkit you probably want something one step up.
22:25 < dx> 17:24 <@Kayaba> I'm a Microsoft Partner
22:25 < dx> 17:24 <@Kayaba> I will give any contributor Visual Studio 2014
22:26 < TkTech> C#/Java/Python/Ruby/*anything* really that provides better debugging
22:26 < TkTech> And quick iteration, if the entire focus is on plugins over pure speed
22:26 <+SirCmpwn> it's not that difficult to provide interop
22:26 <+SirCmpwn> and performance is an important consideration for bigger servers
22:27 < dx> the difficult part is getting all the boring details written
22:27 <+SpaceManiac> Bukkit itself had bindings for Python/Ruby/others...
22:27 <+SirCmpwn> the only problem is time, I would need to work on it full time to get anything near usable
22:27 <+SirCmpwn> if I worked on Craft.Net full time for a month it'd probably be usable in production
22:28 < dx> depends on your definition of "usable in production" of course
22:28 < Drainedsoul> C++ \o/
22:28 <+SirCmpwn> suitable as a replacement for the stock server, I mean
22:31 < shoghicp> packet compression in 1.8 is DEFLATE, right?
22:31 < Drainedsoul> yes
22:32 < GauHelldragon> what are you working on?
22:33 < Aaron1011> What should the NBT for Update Block Entity look like?
22:33 < Drainedsoul> Aaron1011: In what way?
22:33 < Drainedsoul> It's just NBT, unless there is no NBT, in which case it's just a zero byte
22:33 < Aaron1011> Drainedsoul: I'm not sure if the top compound tag should a name set to the saveID of the tile entity
22:34 < Drainedsoul> o I don't know anything about what's actually in the NBT
22:37 < Aaron1011> Drainedsoul: From looking at my local CraftBukkit copy, I think it does
22:37 < Aaron1011> There's only one method which serializes to NBT
22:38 < Aaron1011> Which calls super, to put in the ID
22:38 <+SirCmpwn> maybe I will try to put something together
22:38 <+SirCmpwn> I've got a bunch of unused PTO
22:39 < Drainedsoul> SirCmpwn: Put which together?
22:40 <+SirCmpwn> a new server capable of filling the bukkit gap
22:40 < Drainedsoul> in Java?
22:40 <+SirCmpwn> hell no
22:41 < Drainedsoul> in what then?
22:41 <+SirCmpwn> dunno
22:41 <+SirCmpwn> maybe just bringing Craft.Net to completion, or something else
22:44 < dx> SirCmpwn: could start by advertising craft.net subtly on reddit and relevant channels, maybe you'll find interested people
22:44 < shoghicp> If sending 8 sections in a Chunk Data packet, the length should be 131328, right?
22:45 < shoghicp> 131072 + biomeIds
22:45 <+SirCmpwn> dx: not a bad idea
22:45 <+SirCmpwn> got any suggestions on where to mention it?
22:46 <+SirCmpwn> https://mediacru.sh/bgpOlykSL_Pt
22:46 < dx> hmmm, admincraft maybe? that's the only minecraft subreddit i browse nowadays
22:46 < dx> i think SpaceManiac posted about glowstone there before
22:47 < dx> SirCmpwn: hahah
22:48 < dx> http://www.reddit.com/r/admincraft/comments/27iqg0/glowstone_foss_server_with_bukkit_plugin_support/
22:51 <+SirCmpwn> would it be accurate to say I'm one of the most knowledgable people on the technical details of Minecraft
22:51 <+SirCmpwn> I think I am but modesty forces me to ask for second opinions
22:51 < TkTech> SirCmpwn: There are actually some forks of craft.net that seem to have 1.8
22:51 <+SirCmpwn> really? I know there's one guy working on it, but he's not done
22:52 < TkTech> One is only at 1.7.6, the other seems to be at 1.8 but with a UUID bug
22:52 < TkTech> Other guy seems to be doing bug fixes and world gen
22:52 < TkTech> (Just going by commit messages, which can be utterly off)
22:52 <+SirCmpwn> link to other guy?
22:52 < TkTech> https://github.com/Hyrtwol/Craft.Net/commit/84bfc7fdd6b97095040615b69d4751afb9d32c5e
22:53 < TkTech> Flatlands, maze
22:53 <+SirCmpwn> ah, this is one of the guys involved in the doomed project
22:53 <+SirCmpwn> I wonder if he's going to contribute his changes upstream
22:53 <+SirCmpwn> reading that commit doesn't give me much hope, though :/
22:53 <+SirCmpwn> for his goals, that is
22:54 < Bibl> fun fact, i'm the best in the world.
22:54 < TkTech> Github diff really needs to filter out Visual Studio project cruft
22:54 < TkTech> I don't care that the UUID on fNBT changed
22:56 < dx> SirCmpwn: i don't know about your knowledge but you can objectively say that a lot of people use your code as reference
22:57 <+SirCmpwn> thanks, dx 
22:57 < Bibl> gitignore?
23:00 < dx> SirCmpwn: also you should clarify that, although your name is "SirCmpwn", you didn't get banned from #mcdevs in the last 12 months so being called "SirCmpwn" shouldn't be an issue
23:00  * dx cough
23:00  * SirCmpwn kicks dx in the shin
23:01 < dx> seriously though, i think you've developed more patience now
23:04 < Dhruv0> Heyy
23:04 < Dhruv0> Can someone check if I did Position's correctly?
23:06 < Dhruv0> https://github.com/PlasmaShaft/Craft.Net/blob/master/source/Craft.Net.Common/Position.cs
23:06 < Bibl> can you not decompile the mc client?
23:06 < Bibl> theres public decompilers
23:06 <+SirCmpwn> no
23:06 <+SirCmpwn> Craft.Net is clean room only
23:07 < dx> Dhruv0: first issue: git config --global user.email=your@email.here
23:07 < GauHelldragon> what does that mean
23:07 < dx> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design
23:07 < Dhruv0> dx My bad
23:08 < GauHelldragon> neat, thanks dx
23:08 < GauHelldragon> i learned something today
23:09 < GauHelldragon> a valuable lesson
23:09 < dx> a new method to avoid getting sued has been added to your skills! [check inventory]
23:10 < Dhruv0> The player is crashing on Send Position and I feel its something on the Position class
23:10 < Dhruv0> Are Position's suppose to be sent and read as longs?
23:21 < nickelpro> Bukkit is dead, time for my shitty python implementation to take over the world
23:40 < belak> winny: quick question about mcstat...
23:41 < belak> winny: any idea why it appears to wait for the timeout, no matter what?
23:41 < belak> winny: er, with the non-legacy ping
23:44 <+SirCmpwn> if anyone wants to read my thoughts on all this bukkit stuff, and where Craft.Net may go from here, I've posted them on reddit: http://redd.it/2fuhj7
23:46 < belak> I wish it wasn't .net... since that limits it to pretty much only running on windows easily
23:46 <+SirCmpwn> bullshit
23:46 < belak> Hm?
23:46 <+SirCmpwn> I exclusively use linux
23:46 <+SirCmpwn> Craft.Net was built almost entirely on linux
23:47 < belak> Ah, forgot about mono
23:47 < belak> >_<
23:47 < belak> I'm an idiot
23:47 <+SirCmpwn> it's okay, you're forgiven
23:48 < belak> Looks like an interesting project
23:49 < Dhruv0> Spigot is back O-o, somehow evading copyrights
23:52 < iBotPeaches> patching ftw
--- Day changed mar. sept. 09 2014
00:00 < Bibl> with c#
00:00 < Bibl> why****
00:00 < Bibl> **
00:00 < Bibl> why c#
00:00 < Bibl> or .net or w/e
00:01 < Bibl> why not c or c++
00:01 <+SirCmpwn> because C# is more easily extensible
00:01 <+SirCmpwn> and because my actual goal was to build this stuff to serve C# developers
00:02 <+SirCmpwn> and Craft.Net is more performant than any other server out there, so no nonsense about performance, please
00:06 <+fragmer> Choice of C# would also allow existing modders (who mostly use Java) to adopt pretty quickly
00:07 <+SirCmpwn> I'm tempted to try something in golang just to see how I like it
00:07 <+SirCmpwn> but the problem with that is that plugins are more difficult
00:08 <+SirCmpwn> C# has got pretty good concurrency, but the memory and CPU footprint is definitely higher
00:09 <+fragmer> It's possible to squeeze rather good performance out of C#. Profile and optimize! :P
00:09 <+SirCmpwn> oh, sure, of course it is
00:10 <+SirCmpwn> but at the end of the day I imagine you would spend a lot less time tweaking code in native languages than in C# and get better results anyway
00:11 <+SirCmpwn> you know that I'm a big supporter of C# but I have to recognize its faults at some point
00:11 <+fragmer> Perhaps. C# has the benefit of a massive standard library and mature tools. Save some time on development, spend some time on tweaking.
00:11 <+SirCmpwn> true
00:11 <+SirCmpwn> the big benefit of the C# route is that Craft.Net already exists
00:11 < belak> SirCmpwn: Go is pretty nice... what do you mean by plugins are difficult? I assume you mean dynamic loading?
00:11 <+SirCmpwn> belak: right.
00:11 < belak> AH
00:12 < belak> I actually like how they implemented sql drivers... it's pretty much a plugin system
00:12 <+SirCmpwn> it's not elegant
00:12 <+SirCmpwn> and it's harder for non-programmers to comprehend
00:12 < belak> What don't you like about it?
00:12 <+SirCmpwn> hell, it's tough for java programmers to comprehend
00:13 <+SirCmpwn> it stil requires recompiling to support a new driver, right?
00:13 <+SirCmpwn> I can't ask your average server admin to know how to compile go code
00:13 < umby24> Personally I'd be willing to contribute to C.N to try and help further this cause, but currently swamped with schoolwork
00:13 < belak> That is true...
00:13 < belak> Shouldn't be that hard to make a shim around go that'll do it for you
00:14 <+fragmer> I'll keep working on fNbt, in slow motion :P
00:14 <+SirCmpwn> I think plugins would best be accomplished with a secondary runtime, like lua
00:14 <+fragmer> I should probably hurry up
00:14 < umby24> -- and I love using Lua so that would be fantastic
00:14 < umby24> But from personal experience, getting something like NLua to work on mono is a pita
00:14 < belak> SirCmpwn: there's otto... it's a js runtime completely in go
00:14 < belak> But lua is a lot nicer...
00:15 <+fragmer> I got caught up in designing/redesigning the API about 30 times over the course of 1.5 years. A case of perfectionism doing more harm than good.
00:15 <+SirCmpwn> fragmer: I've been working on the KnightOS kernel for 4 years and I've rewritten it 3 times, and rewritten entire subsystems countless times
00:15 <+SirCmpwn> you let assembly sit around long enough and you inevitably become disgusted with it
00:16 <+fragmer> Yep heh
00:16 <+fragmer> "What was I thinking? I better scrap this and start over CLEAN."
00:16 <+fragmer> A few hours later "Oh THAT's what I was thinking. I haven't thought of complications/edge-cases. Better take a break and give it a fresh look tomorrow."
00:17 <+fragmer> Repeat 30x
02:16 < dx> SirCmpwn: congratulations you got 1 reddit gold and 50 cents, that should be enough to fund craft.net development for a month, get to work
02:17 <+SirCmpwn> :<
02:17 < Dhruv0> SirCmpwn If that's the case, can I get paid?
02:17 <+SirCmpwn> paid for what?
02:17 < dx> Dhruv0: you can get 1% of SirCmpwn's share, but that's less than one cent so that's nothing
02:17 < Dhruv0> Paid for idling in your channel :P
02:18 <+SirCmpwn> no, you cannot get paid for idling in my channel
02:18 < Dhruv0> dx deal :P
02:18 < dx> SirCmpwn: too late, already paid him
02:18 < Dhruv0> Send the money somewhere where its useful :P
02:19 < dx> actually i've also donated the same amount of money i gave you to 50 different charities
02:19 < dx> don't worry
02:19 < Dhruv0> Lol
02:50 < enchilado> OMG hi SirCmpwn 
02:50 < enchilado> How are you
02:51 <+SirCmpwn> hi enchilado 
02:51 <+SirCmpwn> I'm doing fine
02:51 <+SirCmpwn> how are you
02:51 < enchilado> Not bad 
02:51 < enchilado> Planning to get addicted to caffeine
02:51 <+SirCmpwn> good luck
02:52 < enchilado> ty
03:06 < Drainedsoul> I never understand what people mean by "extensible" and "plug-ins", and what they feel makes this so difficult in unmanaged languages
03:06 <+SirCmpwn> it's not unmanaged langauges that are difficult
03:06 <+SirCmpwn> it's Go.
03:06 < Drainedsoul> o okay, that makes more sense
03:06 < Drainedsoul> I know nothing about Go
03:06 <+SirCmpwn> Go is statically linked and has no means of loading exteranl code
03:07 < Drainedsoul> I was speaking through the C++ lens
03:07 <+SirCmpwn> external*
03:07 < Drainedsoul> Wow that sounds awful
03:07 <+SirCmpwn> it has its advantages
03:07 <+SirCmpwn> like being totally badass at concurrency
03:07 < dx> not even something ugly like dlopen?
03:07 <+SirCmpwn> dx: nope
03:07 < Drainedsoul> how is dlopen ugly?
03:07 < Drainedsoul> I never understand what people mean by "concurrency" either
03:08 < dx> Drainedsoul: ugly to use a whole library through that
03:08 <+SirCmpwn> you have to recompile or use some sort of external interface (RPC or something) to make it work
03:08 < dx> fun
03:08 <+SirCmpwn> it seems (from my research) that most people run a second process and use IPC for "plugins"
03:08 < Drainedsoul> dx: Okay, that's true.  I mostly just bootstrap things through dlopen.  So it's one call to dlopen/dlsym
03:08 <+SirCmpwn> Drainedsoul: concurrency means the ability to do several things at once
03:08 < Drainedsoul> So what does Go do so much better than say, std::thread or std::async?
03:08 <+SirCmpwn> it's integrated at a syntax level
03:08 <+SirCmpwn> if you want to run a function asyncronously
03:09 <+SirCmpwn> go functionName(...)
03:09 <+SirCmpwn> they also have thread safe communication built in
03:09 <+SirCmpwn> I was playing around with it a while ago, read this code I wrote: https://github.com/SirCmpwn/rubber/blob/master/client/client.go
03:10 <+SirCmpwn> oh, and they manage your thread pool and stuff for you so it's nice and performant
03:11 < Drainedsoul> this suffix type stuff is hard to read
03:11 < Drainedsoul> doesn't Go like, not have generics
03:11 <+SirCmpwn> yeah
03:11 < Drainedsoul> ugh
03:11 <+SirCmpwn> that's painful but you don't really need them
03:11  * SirCmpwn writes a considerable amount of C
03:11 < Drainedsoul> you're trying to tell someone who's fav language is C++ that you don't really need generics
03:11 < Drainedsoul> not going to be successful
03:12 <+SirCmpwn> I write a shitload of C#
03:12 <+SirCmpwn> including a bunch of stuff with generics
03:12 <+SirCmpwn> and I also know C, python, javascript, assembly, and more
03:12 <+SirCmpwn> you don't need generics
03:12 < Drainedsoul> sure, but you don't "need" anything more than the bare minimum needed to qualify for turing completeness either
03:13 < Drainedsoul> if we want to get pedantic
03:13 <+SirCmpwn> I wouldn't really make a minecraft server very strongly type oriented if I were writing it in Go
03:13 < Drainedsoul> what do you mean
03:13 <+SirCmpwn> I mean that I'd use objects to carry state rather than a big old inheritance tree and such
03:13 <+SirCmpwn> and make it mostly procedural
03:14 <+SirCmpwn> concurrent and procedural, but not throwing big heavy typed objects all over the place
03:14 < Drainedsoul> sure
03:14 <+SirCmpwn> that's part of why I like Go, it's got very lightweight types
03:14 <+SirCmpwn> it's almost duck typed but not quite
03:14 < Drainedsoul> I mean you're not going to get disagreement about "big old inheritance" from a C++ developer
03:14 < dx> what are generics and why do i need them?
03:14 < Drainedsoul> :[
03:14  * dx doesn't do c++ or C# and sucks at java
03:14 < Drainedsoul> http://git.rleahy.ca/MCPP/blob/master/include/mcpp/packetrouter.hpp
03:14 < Drainedsoul> dude TMP
03:15 <+SirCmpwn> TMP?
03:15 < Drainedsoul> Template MetaProgramming
03:15 <+SirCmpwn> eww
03:15 <+SirCmpwn> Template Metaprograming, or how I learned to stop worrying and love cruft
03:15 < dx> hahah
03:15 < dx> you're insulting Drainedsoul's religion
03:16 <+SirCmpwn> well, I don't use enough C++ to have a meaningful conversation about it
03:16 <+SirCmpwn> I know just enough to steer clear of it
03:16 < Drainedsoul> why
03:16 < Drainedsoul> it's fun
03:16 <+SirCmpwn> I prefer C
03:16 < dx> i had to deal with c++ once
03:16 < Drainedsoul> wut
03:17 < Drainedsoul> how can anyone who's seen std::vector<T> prefer C to C++
03:17 < dx> i'm not sure if it was the language's fault or the author's, but it was just AWFUL
03:17 <+SirCmpwn> because I don't need std::vector<T>
03:17 < Drainedsoul> std::unordered_map<T>?
03:17 < Drainedsoul> std::find_if?
03:17 <+SirCmpwn> you like those things because you are in the mindset of needing those things
03:17 < Drainedsoul> yes
03:17 <+SirCmpwn> you consider your problems and orient your solutions to fit the tools you have
03:17 < Drainedsoul> I program and therefore I need arrays
03:17 < Drainedsoul> O_o
03:17 <+SirCmpwn> C has got arrays
03:18 < Drainedsoul> sure, and you can use them in C++
03:18 < Drainedsoul> except with type safety etc.
03:18 < Drainedsoul> std::array
03:18 <+SirCmpwn> C is type safe
03:18 < Drainedsoul> >etc.
03:18 < Drainedsoul> std::array knows how big it is
03:18 <+SirCmpwn> you can't seriously claim that introducing generics improves type safety
03:18 < Drainedsoul> nice array-to-pointer decay
03:18 < Drainedsoul> lol
03:18 < Drainedsoul> generics are type safety
03:18 <+SirCmpwn> forget it, I don't want to fight a language war here
03:18 < Drainedsoul> std::sort (generic) or qsort (not generic)
03:19 <+SirCmpwn> is there any way you could come out of this discussion with a different opinion
03:19 < dx> SirCmpwn: what would this channel be without the language wars!?
03:19 < Drainedsoul> std::sort is also faster, which is nice :)
03:19 <+SirCmpwn> dx: quieter
03:19 < dx> welp.
03:19 < Fysac> C? C++? Real programmers write everything in assembly.
03:19 < Drainedsoul> I just don't see what you gain from limiting yourself to only C
03:20  * SirCmpwn has written tens of thousands of lines of assembly :<
03:20 < dx> SirCmpwn: nerd
03:20  * Fysac feels sorry for SirCmpwn
03:20 < Drainedsoul> like what does having to constantly write error prone manual memory/resource management get you?
03:20  * SirCmpwn enjoys writing tens of thousands of lines of assembly
03:20 < dx> SirCmpwn: z80 or something else?
03:20 <+SirCmpwn> mostly z80, yeah
03:20 <+SirCmpwn> Drainedsoul: I'm ignoring you, I said I didn't want to have a language war with you
03:20 < dx> rip
03:21 < Drainedsoul> rofl
03:21 <+SirCmpwn> nip this in the bud before we argue about it for far too long
03:21 < dx> not in the mood huh
03:21 <+SirCmpwn> indeed
03:21 <+SirCmpwn> I'll spend my time looking up cute anime girls instead
03:22 < Dhruv0> Lel
03:22 < dx> absolutely disgusting
03:22 <+SirCmpwn> if you say so
03:22 < dx> also relevant: "Arguing with an engineer is a lot like wrestling in the mud with a pig. After a few hours, you realize that he likes it"
03:23 < Drainedsoul> disagreement is edifying, provided you go about it in the correct way
03:23 < dx> Drainedsoul: it's rarely correct, but still fun
03:23 < Drainedsoul> Depends on your def'n of "correct"?
03:23 < dx> well, how about, "rarely edifying"?
03:23 <+SirCmpwn> in other news, I'm slowly working on redoing sethbling.com in python
03:24 <+SirCmpwn> I did it in C# and ran it on Windows cause seth knows C# and I figured he'd want to be able to tweak it
03:24 < Fysac> Wow.
03:24 <+SirCmpwn> but the costs of hosting things on a windows server is too high and he's not bothering to change things, so off to python it is
03:24 < Drainedsoul> what are you using to build it in python
03:24 <+SirCmpwn> flask
03:24 <+SirCmpwn> <3 flask
03:24 < dx> ...i'm pretty sure seth always knew python
03:25 <+SirCmpwn> nah, he didn't.
03:25 < dx> isn't that what mcedit filters are made of?
03:25 <+SirCmpwn> he used to work at Microsoft on the C# team
03:25 <+SirCmpwn> he only learned python for mcedit, and that was after I made the website
03:25 < dx> oh ok
03:25 < Drainedsoul> I could never get into Python given the lack of curly brackets
03:25 < dx> Drainedsoul: that's easily fixable
03:25 < Drainedsoul> for whatever reason I can't process whitespace-delimited code, it just looks like noise to me
03:25 < dx> from __future__ import braces
03:25 < Drainedsoul> lol
03:26 <+SirCmpwn> I was about to mention that, dx :P
03:26 < Drainedsoul> can I import antigravity as well?
03:26 <+SirCmpwn> http://www.pythonb.org/
03:26 < dx> Drainedsoul: yes
03:26 < dx> it works, too
03:26 <+SirCmpwn> if you have x running it works
03:26 < dx> although it throws a GLib-CRITICAL warning here
03:26 < dx> what *doesn't* throw a GLib-CRITICAL warning, anyway
03:26 <+SirCmpwn> or if you're in windows when a graphical enviornment is required because some fucking idiot thought that was a good idea
03:27 < Drainedsoul> I never understood that
03:27 < Drainedsoul> even server core has a GUI, minimalistic as it is
03:27 < Drainedsoul> it's just a GUI that opens conhost.exe
03:27 < Drainedsoul> p. bizarre
03:49 <+AndrewPH> SirCmpwn: import antigravity is working fine here, without x installed
03:49 <+SirCmpwn> what does it do?
03:49 <+SirCmpwn> x, wayland, some means of opening a browser
03:49 <+SirCmpwn> I guess you could open lynx or something
03:50 < dx> it uses the webbrowser module
03:50 < dx> which just does some guessing to find an appropriate web browser to launch
03:51 <+AndrewPH> it just opens lynx lol
03:51 <+SirCmpwn> that sounds super helpful for viewing webcomics
03:51 < dx> lol
03:52 <+AndrewPH> well it launches the default web browser, probably
03:52 < dx> open /usr/lib/python2.7/webbrowser.py
03:52 <+SirCmpwn> also, why are you running without x o_O
03:52 < dx> and see it for yourself
03:52 < dx> interesting stuff around line 500
03:53 <+SirCmpwn> >python2.7
03:53 <+SirCmpwn> ishygddt
03:53 < dx> hue
03:53 < dx> well, you definitely have that installed
03:54 <+SirCmpwn> why is w3m the last choice of console browsers
03:54 <+SirCmpwn> it's the only one that supports images
03:55 < dx> lol yes
03:55 < dx> but its image viewer is an awful hack
03:55 <+SirCmpwn> yeah, one that only works on xterm, bleh
03:56 <+SirCmpwn> it's supposed to work on urxvt but does not seem to be working
03:56 < dx> it worked at some point with st because someone wrote a patch for it, but they reverted it because it was causing performance issues for everything else
03:56 < dx> i'm still not sure how it works
03:56 <+SirCmpwn> am I supposed to know someone named ColonelError
03:57 < dx> eh
04:11 < dx> SirCmpwn: oh, just saw ColonelError on reddit, i don't know but their user page says they moderate /r/dcpu16
04:11  * SirCmpwn would like to forget DCPU-16
04:12 < dx> i think even that reddit forgot about it
04:12 < dx> all posts are months ago
04:13 <+AndrewPH> SirCmpwn: without x -> ssh
04:13 <+SirCmpwn> ah.
04:13 <+AndrewPH> or yolo
04:13 <+SirCmpwn> although using ssh does not neccessarily imply not using x
04:13 <+AndrewPH> connecting to wireless networks without x would be interesting
04:13 < winny> belak: hm, it might have a bug in the code
04:13  * dx would like to pretend ssh X forwarding doesn't exist
04:14  * SirCmpwn was using x forwarding earlier today
04:14 < dx> i'm sorry for your loss
04:14 <+SirCmpwn> it's not terrible
04:14 < dx> well it's okay over LAN
04:14 <+SirCmpwn> I used it to run some windows on my work laptop from the comfort of my personal desktop
04:14 <+SirCmpwn> yeah, over LAN
04:14 <+SirCmpwn> with compression and weak+fast crypto
04:14 < winny> why not vnc into an existing x session
04:15 < winny> or nx
04:15 < dx> ssh is better if latency is very low
04:15 <+SirCmpwn> I like making them first class windows that my window manager is responsible for
04:15 < winny> if link is reliable
04:16 < dx> not sure about nx
04:17 < belak> winny: is it just me, or is that actually happening?
04:17 < dx> it's happening
04:17 < winny> :D
04:17 < belak> lol
04:21 < winny> hm
04:21 < winny> I can't reproduce the bahovior
04:22 < winny> I tried with google.com:25565
04:22 < winny> and with localhost:25565 with nc -l 25565 running (unresponsive server)
04:23 < winny> Error pinging google.com:25565 (Operation timed out)
04:23 < winny> Error pinging localhost:25565 (Connection timed out)
04:23 < winny> is there a specific server you are having issues with?
04:24 <+SirCmpwn> who are you talking to, winny 
04:25 < winny> belak: ^
04:27 < belak> winny: specifically on mc servers... https://gist.github.com/belak/94821f129b077a755686
04:28 < winny> nice gist
04:29 < belak> I wish it didn't call it .gitmodules
04:31 < winny> belak: worked on my mac -- https://i.imgur.com/YvaW06B.png
04:32 < winny> a little slow but worked
04:33 < winny> I've noticed that the minecraf_users_ munin plugin I wrote has problems when hosted on a less than 100% reliable internet
04:34 < winny> for example
04:36 < winny> so does it hit the php execution time limit?
06:28 <+SpaceManiac> http://wiki.vg/index.php?title=Main_Page&curid=1&diff=6091&oldid=6087 <- should this be reverted?
06:28 <+SpaceManiac> I don't feel it's appropriate
06:30 < Not-c7fb> [bravo] edunham created branch versions http://git.io/jEZLsA
06:41 <+SirCmpwn> SpaceManiac: I second that motion
06:42 < dx> kill it with fire
06:43 < Not-c7fb> [bravo] edunham pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] http://git.io/-TxydQ
06:43 <+SpaceManiac> It is done
06:43 < Not-c7fb> [bravo] E. Dunham 7be5d79 - fix faq link it appears that the faq previously referenced no longer exists.
06:48 < dx> eh https://github.com/kangarko/Rush
06:49 < dx> from the 'contributions' of the person who added those links
06:49 < dx> "server/src/main/java/imported/world/gen" seems legit
06:51 <+SirCmpwn> no license
06:52 <+SirCmpwn> this is decompiled
06:52  * SirCmpwn closes
06:52 < Jckf> There's CraftBukkit bits in there too
06:52 < Jckf> What is this?
06:52 <+SpaceManiac> it's some horrifying amalgation of Bukkit, CB, Spigot, and Glowstone all in one repo
06:52 < dx> and NMS
06:52 < Jckf> The Frankencraft server
06:53 < dx> also "maincraft" is in the credits, whatever that is
07:06 < Not-c7fb> [Glowstone] SpaceManiac pushed 1 commit [+0/-0/±4] http://git.io/do7woA
07:06 < Not-c7fb> [Glowstone] coelho b6a27d4 - Use 16-bit (MC 1.8) block types internally.
07:13 <+SirCmpwn> https://www.reddit.com/r/admincraft/comments/2fuhj7/i_am_a_minecraft_reverse_engineer_here_to_weigh/ckd73tx?context=3
07:13 <+SirCmpwn> discussion starter
07:17 < dx> SirCmpwn: i wonder if that's sarcastic
07:18 <+SirCmpwn> I'm not sure
07:18 <+SirCmpwn> but I don't want to just leave it unanswered
07:19 < Grum> well it is a discussion starter
07:19 < Grum> not sure if it will be the discussion you wanted to start
07:20 <+SirCmpwn> yeah
07:20 <+SirCmpwn> I think Mojang should have kept its nose out of things, even though I don't suport pay to win
07:20 < Grum> i'd like to discuss one part, well two actually, but they come from 1 reply of you
07:20 <+SirCmpwn> but I haven't settled on my stance in this matter yet
07:20 < Grum> we didn't put our nose in anything that wasn't ours to begin with
07:20 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: go ahead
07:21 < Grum> I don't really see how people can still argue against that...
07:21 < Grum> because I have a long history of butting heads with them over technical flaws in Minecraft that they refuse to fix
07:21 < Grum> what things do we refuse to fix?
07:22 <+SirCmpwn> do we have to rehash this?
07:22 < Grum> i'm just curious :/
07:22 <+SirCmpwn> well, okay
07:22 < Grum> because you haven't really been butting heads at all
07:22 <+SirCmpwn> let me summon up my list of complaints again
07:22 <+SirCmpwn> it's a rare conversation between you and I that feels friendly, Grum 
07:23 <+SirCmpwn> anyway, take this with a grain of salt, since I haven't looked at things since about 1.7.5
07:23 <+SirCmpwn> 1. positions are inconsistently encoded, with three floats in some places, three integers in another, four in some places, etc
07:24 <+SirCmpwn> 2. client-to-server and server-to-client packets are designed like they were made by two people, with the same packet having two different IDs, or packets having different structure depending on where they come from...
07:24 <+SirCmpwn> this complicates the hell out of protocol implementations
07:24 <+SirCmpwn> hold on, reviewing a pull request
07:24 < Grum> 1) yes, not trivial to fix though, we need to untangle far more :(
07:25 <+SirCmpwn> anyway, mo' problems
07:25 <+SirCmpwn> entity metadata is nasty. The weird dictionary format in place for it is just filthy
07:25 < Grum> 2) just because the protocol was 'sync' before (and fields abused for multiple purposes because 'the packets had to look the same both ways' doesn't mean when we made it async is 'worse', yes you have to implement more, but why would we truly care for external implementations?
07:26 < Grum> 3) yeah entity metadata is a horrid hack, but until we start tacking entities (which is probably after 1.9 .. i hope before) there is little to do about it
07:26 <+SirCmpwn> well, you don't have to care about external implementations, but clearly I do and it contributes to my feelings about the atmosphere between us when you don't give a shit about them
07:26 <+SirCmpwn> anyway, more problems to talk about
07:27 <+SirCmpwn> stance is totally weird and unneccessary in the first place, but making it even worse is that the packets that include it are very weird depending on which direction they're going
07:27 < Grum> I'm saying that i do not *have* to give a shit, i dislike the protocol as is, but its in a far better state than before
07:27 <+SirCmpwn> and that was even a problem before 1.7
07:27 < Grum> and because its not sync anymore we can do changes far easier
07:27 <+SirCmpwn> I dunno about that. The 1.7 update just shook things up, I don't feel like it fixed much (except for length-prefixed packets, thanks for that)
07:27 < Grum> yes, stance is atrocious, i dont even know what it does
07:27 < dx> what does 'sync' mean in this context?
07:27 < Grum> 1 packet used for two directions
07:27 <+SpaceManiac> stance shenanigans are gone from the protocol in 1.8 to the best of my knowledge
07:28 < Grum> yes, because we finally fixed one HUGE horrible thing in the codebase
07:28 <+SirCmpwn> well, the problem witht the "async" way is that sometimes you have two packets that do the same thing
07:28 < Grum> that the origin of an entity is different on the client vs the server
07:28 <+SirCmpwn> and it makes sense to put them in the same implementation
07:28 < Grum> 'stance' was there to communicate part of that difference
07:28 <+SirCmpwn> but then they could have different packet IDs and things are weird
07:28 < Grum> SirCmpwn: we fully realize that we have duplicate things now
07:28 < Grum> SirCmpwn: but the intention is to get around to clean that up
07:28 <+SirCmpwn> I'm glad to hear it
07:28 < Grum> if we were stuck with a 'sync' protocol there is no trivial way to do so
07:28 <+SirCmpwn> (this is a recent development)
07:28 < Grum> yes
07:28 < Grum> 'recent' but yes
07:29 < Grum> its 1.7, so a year old orso :p
07:29 <+SirCmpwn> 1.7 is a year old? jesus christ
07:29 <+SirCmpwn> where did the time go
07:29 < Grum> you have no idea how many bugs we found when we 'removed stance'
07:29 <+SirCmpwn> anyway, we already had a spat about the JSON chat that I don't really want to rehash
07:29 < Grum> or rather, when we introduced an official 'eyeHeight' on every entity
07:29 <+SirCmpwn> you remember it, I'm sure
07:29 < dx> hard to forget that one
07:30 < Grum> SirCmpwn: we can optimize that later to a custom parsed meta-language
07:30 <+SirCmpwn> are there still several ways of creating particles or sound effects, by the way
07:30 < dx> SirCmpwn: oh btw they finally added compression :P
07:30 < Grum> writing one 'just for the fun of it' ... yeah total waste of time
07:30 < Grum> SirCmpwn: yes, particle system is untouched
07:30 < Grum> also just for the record, i'm extremely unhappy with all the added commands
07:30 <+SirCmpwn> JSON just isn't good to represent that kind of data
07:30 < Grum> json is a good way to represent any structured data
07:30 <+SirCmpwn> JSON represents objects, not a progressively built string
07:30 <+SirCmpwn> it can be hacked around to fill any need
07:31 < Grum> yup, any structured data need
07:31 <+SirCmpwn> but you were so concerned about whether you could blah blah blah
07:31 < dx> SirCmpwn: in that case, you disagree with the structure (nested bullshit), not so much the representation (json)
07:31 <+SirCmpwn> well, sort of
07:31 < Grum> and as we didn't have the time to spend on making another meta-language just for text, this was easiest
07:31 <+SirCmpwn> JSON just isn't a procedural encoding
07:31 <+SirCmpwn> you should be able to rearrange JSON and it should work the same way
07:31 <+SirCmpwn> serialization and such is totally borked
07:32 <+SirCmpwn> anyway, next: the complete mess that is windows
07:32 < Grum> i'd argue that serialization is to much focused on making it small
07:32 < Grum> rather than making it consistent
07:32 <+SirCmpwn> different windows in different locations in different contexts have different slot IDs and tons of weird junk
07:32 <+SirCmpwn> like the fact that I have to rearrange slots in a players inventory when saving them to disk versus sending them on the wire
07:32 < Grum> SirCmpwn: also agreed, we didn't get around finishing the inventory rewrite, that would take care of that
07:33 < Grum> frankly slots should be named
07:33 < dx> i get the feeling SirCmpwn is just enumerating stuff that is buried at some random point of Grum's TODO list
07:33 < Grum> and the server shouldn't know more than the name