10:18 < Thinkofdeath> dx: well the api is fine anyway
10:18 < dx> yup
10:18 < Thinkofdeath> and SpaceManiac doesn't need craftbukkit
10:20 <+SpaceManiac> I might try maintaining it, but I worry I'm not up to the task
10:21  * Thinkofdeath hides in here away from #spigot
10:21 < Thinkofdeath> so noisy :3
10:21 < Scruff> Hi Thinkofdeath. :P
10:21 <+SpaceManiac> I can only imagine
10:21 < Thinkofdeath> oh god
10:22  * Thinkofdeath thinks about applying m:*!*@*
10:22 < Scruff> Shouldn't mode +m be good enough?
10:22 < eddyb> wtf is spigot?
10:22 < Thinkofdeath> I like my way better
10:22 < dx> Thinkofdeath: bah, i just joined :(
10:22 < Thinkofdeath> rip dx
10:23 < Thinkofdeath> eddyb: (Craft)bukkit fork
10:23 < dx> eddyb: man, you're kinda out of the loop
10:24 < eddyb> dx: that's what I said to people who didn't know what bukkit was
10:25 < eddyb> Thinkofdeath: oh, I think I know it now
10:25 < eddyb> they have optimizations and stuff, no?
10:25 < Thinkofdeath> yep
10:25 < dx> they also have Thinkofdeath
10:25 < dx> a great feature
10:26 < Thinkofdeath> dx: thats more of a negative if you ask me
10:26 < Scruff> xD
10:26 < dx> Thinkofdeath: you gotta improve that self-esteem
10:26 < Thinkofdeath> :3
10:27 < eddyb> wait, what? http://www.spigotmc.org/XenStaff/
10:27 < eddyb> md_5 and Thinkofdeath are spigot?
10:27  * eddyb is confused
10:27 < dx> what about it?
10:28  * Thinkofdeath waves at eddyb 
10:28 < eddyb> dx: I just never put two and two together
10:28 <+SpaceManiac> Thinkofdeath, you guys have any solid plans yet?
10:28 < Thinkofdeath> nope
10:29 < Thinkofdeath> i'm the only one on the team that is awake currently
10:29 < Thinkofdeath> so i'm waiting :P
10:29 < dx> sounds like it will be hard to come up with a plan that isn't "disregard EULA, host spigot in russian torrent trackers"
10:29 < Drainedsoul> That sounds like a good plan though
10:29  * Thinkofdeath takes notes
10:30 < eddyb> so what about spigot is an EULA issue? the original decompiled code?
10:30 <+SpaceManiac> Yeah. Distribution of Mojang IP (the server software).
10:31 < dx> eddyb: craftbukkit is decompiled closed source code of the server, spigot is a set of patches over that code
10:31 < eddyb> so reimplementing the sever from scratch wouldn't be an issue?
10:32 < dx> correct. good luck.
10:33 <+SpaceManiac> I have a project to do that and it's even compatible with Bukkit plugins, but it's not close to feature parity and now might never be
10:33 < dx> well, it would be pretty damn cool if glowstone turned out to be the solution to this problem, and got enough support and contributions for it to be as good as the official server
10:34 < dx> i can dream, right?
10:34 < Drainedsoul> written in Java tho Zzzz :(
10:34 <+SpaceManiac> Nah, I'm crap at project management and have no connections :P
10:35 < dx> SpaceManiac: so start getting better at project management! go spam reddit saying you have an open source alternative to craftbukkit that needs contributions :P
10:36 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: ikr?
10:36 < eddyb> can anyone name the best language for this job?
10:37 < dx> visual basic
10:37 < Drainedsoul> if you put Java in a set, and took the complement of that set, it'd be a pretty good starting point, imo
10:37  * eddyb slaps dx around a bit with fish.NETs
10:37 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: can we exclude memory unsafe languages?
10:37 < dx> no, not .net, visual basic 6.0
10:37 < Drainedsoul> define "memory unsafe"
10:37 < dx> c/c++
10:37 < dx> or what eddyb is thinking, "not-rust"
10:38 < eddyb> dx: dammit, you've spoiled it
10:38 < dx> :D
10:38 < Drainedsoul> is C#, therefore, also unsafe? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/chfa2zb8.aspx
10:38 < eddyb> C#, D, Java are usually fine in that aspect
10:38 < TkTech> Thinkofdeath: Good call, my recommendation is for the entire team to take a 24 hour vacation.
10:39 < eddyb> assuming you don't use explicitely unsafe features such as FFI. once you can call into C, you can do anything
10:39 < dx> yeah with FFI you can fuck up any language.
10:39 < dx> even visual basic
10:39 <+SpaceManiac> dx: Yeah, good idea. I'll sleep on it some, post in a few hours maybe, when I can get on a desktop without being weird
10:39 < dx> SpaceManiac: :D
10:40 < Drainedsoul> that also depends on your defn of "fuck up"
10:40 < eddyb> anyways, the issue those three languages I've mentioned have is GC
10:40 < dx> Drainedsoul: segfault
10:40 < dx> eddyb: fanboy
10:40 < Drainedsoul> segfaults are fine
10:40 < eddyb> Drainedsoul is actually right
10:40 < Drainedsoul> it's when a program doesn't segfault that you have problems
10:40 < eddyb> mhmm
10:40 < Drainedsoul> but why is "memory unsafe" this magical delineation
10:41 < Drainedsoul> what about thread unsafe.  If anything that's worse
10:41 <+SpaceManiac> I've been trying to learn Rust
10:41 < Scruff> http://puu.sh/b1z7N/1b2f35be51.png
10:41 < Scruff> xD
10:41 < TkTech> Unless you're running on Micrsoft's Singularity in which a SEGFAULT is the same thing as a triple fault :)
10:41 < eddyb> the worst part about heartbleed was was that the heart never stopped beating
10:41 < eddyb> TkTech: well, any kernel for that matter :P
10:42 < eddyb> TkTech: excluding lazy loaded pages, of course
10:42 < Drainedsoul> Heartbleed didn't have anything to do with memory unsafety.  It had everything to do with a poorly written custom allocator.  If you don't like the way the GC does things and insist on maintaining massive char [] for buffers in Java
10:42 < Drainedsoul> you can have heartbleed in Java
10:42 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: well, the allocator made it easy to exploit it to get private keys, IIRC
10:42 < jast> the poor allocator only worsened the impact, really
10:42 < eddyb> but the exploit itself was a buffer overflow
10:42 < Drainedsoul> the poor allocator made the memory unsafety impossible for tooling like valgrind, asan, etc. to catch
10:43 < TkTech> The allocator *hid* the pr---
10:43 < TkTech> Dmamit, beat me to it.
10:43 < eddyb> that kind of tooling wouldn't find an issue unless you were fuzzing it
10:43 < Drainedsoul> Have you used asan lol?
10:44 < eddyb> I know how asan works
10:44 < dx> asan is love
10:44 < eddyb> if you didn't trigger the buffer overflow, how on earth could it know anything?
10:44 < eddyb> there is no behavioral difference between not triggering a buffer overflow because the conditions are not met and not triggering a buffer overflow because you would error if it were the case
10:45 < dx> hm, yeah, this is more of an issue for static analysis
10:45 < jast> the beauty is that heartbleed isn't a buffer overflow
10:45 < eddyb> jast: maybe I'm remembering incorrectly
10:45 < jast> I'm not 100% certain right now, either
10:45 < TkTech> You just ask the server for some memory and it happily gives it to you~~
10:45 < Drainedsoul> eddyb: You can make that argument about anything in any language.  This is why we write tests.
10:46 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: not any language
10:46 < dx> was it just a large uninitialized malloc?
10:46  * dx checks
10:46 < Drainedsoul> eddyb: Yes, every language.  You're picking out a certain class of bug.  But any program, in any language, can have bugs, and you won't know about those bugs until/unless those code paths are taken
10:46 < TkTech> "Hey sshd, can you give me the first 4k of your memory with this fancy request?"
10:46 < TkTech> "Why sure there fellow! Here you go."
10:46 < jast> IIRC it was an uninitialized malloc that was then partially written over
10:46 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: ah, bugs in general
10:47 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: but there's entire classes of bugs that are statically preventable
10:47 < dx> ah yeah http://git.openssl.org/gitweb/?p=openssl.git;a=commitdiff;h=96db902
10:47 < TkTech> Drainedsoul: Is the point of functional verification (ex: L4) not to prove that it operates without bugs?
10:48 < jast> it's pretty hard to _prove_ that, to the point you may as well consider it impossible
10:48 < TkTech> Except they did :P http://www.ertos.nicta.com/research/l4.verified/
10:49 < Drainedsoul> dx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnBbhXBDmwU#t=5m
10:49 < jast> TkTech: host seems down
10:49 < dx> comic sans ♥
10:49 < eddyb> jast: not here
10:49 < TkTech> jast: It's up oO
10:49 < jast> not from my place
10:50 < jast> hum, DNS might be broken here
10:50 < TkTech> Living in a nation at odds with the West/Australia?
10:50 < jast> SERVFAIL :(
10:50 < Drainedsoul> lol "/Australia"
10:51 < TkTech> NICTA is Aussie
10:51 < eddyb> there are few languages that solve some safety issues, but from those without a GC I can only think of Cyclone
10:51 < eddyb> (if it's not named something else)
10:52 < dx> but eddyb, what about the best language ever?!
10:52 < dx> [dramatic sounds]
10:54 < eddyb> dx: Idris :P?
10:54 < eddyb> "introducing a dependently typed minecraft server"
10:54 < TkTech> Ada is the one true language.
10:54 < eddyb> TkTech: ahh that's the other one (I think) :D
10:54 < eddyb> or was it the one with weird symbols?
10:54 < jast> swift? :)
10:55 < TkTech> Oh, you thinking of the NASA one?
10:55 < eddyb> didn't it also start with A?
10:55 < dx> jast: the parallel scripting language?
10:55 < eddyb> ALS? no that's...
10:55 < TkTech> HAL/S
10:55 < TkTech> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL/S
10:55 < eddyb> nope
10:55 < TkTech> Reading that is terrifying 
10:56 < eddyb> ATS?
10:56 < jast> dx: the thing apple came out with this year
10:56 < eddyb> jast: which was inspired by Rust :P
10:57 < eddyb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATS_(programming_language) I was thinking of this, but I'm not sure it's the one with the weird simbols
10:57 < jast> and objc
10:57 < dx> jast: this one? http://docs.openstack.org/developer/swift/
10:57 < Drainedsoul> didn't APL have weird symbols?
10:57 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: there we bloody go
10:57 < eddyb> silly acronyms wasting my time
10:57 < Drainedsoul> that's where the name of std::iota came from
10:58 < TkTech> I've never onced remembered iota without looking it up
10:59 < Drainedsoul> I remember it
10:59 < Drainedsoul> because it's the STL function with the bizarre name from APL
10:59 < Drainedsoul> :P
10:59 < eddyb> iota is part of eastern alphabets, no?
11:00 < eddyb> oh, greek, silly me
11:00 < Drainedsoul> http://git.rleahy.ca/MCPP/blob/noise/include/mcpp/simplex.hpp#L175 I'm always super happy when I get to use it-
11:00 < eddyb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yodh
11:00 < Drainedsoul> greek is painful
11:00 < TkTech> dafaq is gitlist
11:01 < Drainedsoul> it's just a git viewer that uses PHP or w'er
11:01 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: brb fixing my keyboard layout
11:01 < TkTech> So very many git UIs now...
11:02 < eddyb> there is no excuse for writing new PHP code
11:02 < Drainedsoul> I have to do it for work
11:02 < Drainedsoul> I'm actually not too mad about it
11:02 < Drainedsoul> before I was hired they were using classic ASP/VBScript
11:02 < Drainedsoul> so I got off easy.
11:03 < TkTech> That sounds like a fun place to work if you're a masochist.
11:03 < dx> https://twitter.com/jeb_/status/502380018216206336
11:03 < Drainedsoul> well I wanted to go back to school, and it was work from home, so, no arguments from me
11:03 < dx> <jeb_> Warren over at bukkit seems to have forgotten that the project was bought by Mojang over two years ago, and isn't his to discontinue.
11:03 < dx> plot twist
11:03 < TkTech> Ohhhhhh here we go!
11:03  * Thinkofdeath grabs popcorn
11:04 < dx> it was a dream all along
11:04 < TkTech> Hm, I was about to make a popcorn comment and then I realized I actually want popcorn.
11:04 < Drainedsoul> great, people caring about what the Mojangstas say
11:04 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: I go back to school this september, having dropped out of last year of highschool in november
11:04 < dx> Drainedsoul: there's no legal issue if bukkit is owned by mojang
11:04 < dx> but i don't even
11:04 < eddyb> is jeb_ master troll?
11:04 < dx> eddyb: definitely
11:05 < Drainedsoul> on IP laws I'm like, to the left of RMS, so when people talk about "legal issue[s]" I just glaze over and stop listening
11:05 < dx> lol
11:05 < dx> eddyb: < jeb_> This is not a joke, we dug up the receipt to be sure.
11:05 < TkTech> eddyb: Good luck at school!
11:06 < eddyb> dx: it's streaming live in #minecraft courtesy of janebot :P
11:06 < dx> lolk
11:06 < eddyb> TkTech: thanks. I hope I survive this year :)
11:07 < TkTech> Well I joined and parted that pretty quick.
11:08 < eddyb> that much for taking over with a Russia^W Rust server implementation
11:09 < dx> lol people hating on evilseph now
11:09 < dx> everything is back to normal, huh
11:10 < eddyb> dx: and here I thought the universe was slapping me for giving up
11:10  * eddyb goes back to giving up
11:10 < eddyb> I wish I didn't have to split this into ten commits, each with meaningful messages
11:11 < TkTech> <5 days later>
11:12 < TkTech> I wish I had split this up into ten commits with meaningful messages...
11:12 < eddyb> TkTech: I've been working on this on and off for the past month or so :(
11:12 < Drainedsoul> eddyb: Why do you have to split things up into commits?
11:12 < Drainedsoul> eddyb: Shouldn't you have like, the opposite problem? @_@
11:13 < eddyb> given that my main test world for this is from w27
11:13 < eddyb> and I'm using the code of the w32 snapshot
11:13 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: well, splitting isn't that big of a deal, making each commit work will be slighty harder
11:14  * eddyb is a perfectionist hacker
11:15 < TkTech> I started Bukkit, I'm going to personally see it through for 1.8. Updating it now :) -Dinnerbro
11:15 < Drainedsoul> eddyb: I just don't understand that problem.
11:16 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: it's called opensource audience :P
11:16 < eddyb> even though I can merge my branch upstream in three clicks, I want code review
11:16 < dx> 05:41 < Scruff> http://puu.sh/b1z7N/1b2f35be51.png
11:16 < Drainedsoul> eddyb: I meant more like, I don't understand the workflow that would result in that.
11:16 < dx> so that's what that meant
11:16 <+SpaceManiac> Huh. Somehow I had not considered that Mojang might have actually bought the rights to Bukkit along with its chief engineers.
11:17 < Drainedsoul> "bought the rights to", glazing over here...
11:17 < dx> SpaceManiac: ikr, 10/10 plot twist right there.
11:17 < TkTech> Do they even need to purchase a work derived from their own without explicit licencing?
11:17 < eddyb> does this mean Bukkit is legal, Spigot is not?
11:18 <+SpaceManiac> Mind-bending. I think I will sleep and hope the facts are clearer in the morn.
11:18 <+SpaceManiac> TkTech, the API too.
11:18 < TkTech> eddyb: Spigot is legal because they didn't contest it.
11:18 < eddyb> hmpf
11:18  * eddyb shrugs and goes back to feature creep
11:19 < eddyb> Drainedsoul: a very bad workflow
11:19 < dx> i guess spigot is going to be ok if they somehow avoid distributing server jars...
11:19 < Drainedsoul> eddyb: I guess that's what I was getting at
11:19 < dx> russian torrent trackers are fine too
11:19 < Drainedsoul> ^
11:19 < eddyb> dx: make a tool that downloads craftbukkit and applies patches?
11:20 < dx> eddyb: that's way too sensible
11:20 < Drainedsoul> use gradle, isn't that what the cool people do?
11:20 < dx> what are you doing eddyb
11:21 < Drainedsoul> ^
11:21 < eddyb> get your bums in #minecraft
11:21 < dx> the rights to the nick "bukkit" in freenode are owned by mojang now
11:21 < TkTech> But that channel makes me sad.
11:21 < eddyb> TkTech: well, not it's too late
11:21 < eddyb> *now
11:22 < eddyb> [12:19] <Fisker> Are you ok bukkit?
11:22 < eddyb> [12:20] * bukkit is fine. you can stop worrying now. xoxo deebee
11:22 <+SpaceManiac> dx, they always were.
11:23 < eddyb> dx: did you know I held jeb_ for like a few months?
11:23 <+SpaceManiac> well, belonged to DB anyways. Ran on his bouncer the whole time too.
11:23 < eddyb> and then transferred it to him
11:23 < dx> SpaceManiac: i was joking, and nickserv says it's ~Joeytje50@wikia/Joeytje50
11:23 <+SpaceManiac> Oh. goofy.
11:23 < eddyb> [12:22] [Notice] -NickServ- Nicks      : eddyb _eddyb_ |eddyb| Etho xNotch Guude TheBastard eddybat noUrNot eddyb9 firefish
11:23 < dx> might be on esper, though
11:23 < eddyb> wait, what?
11:23 < dx> hahah what
11:23 < eddyb> why don't I have eddyb_ and eddyb__?
11:24  * eddyb fixes it
11:24 < dx> >Etho xNotch Guude
11:24 < dx> that's evil
11:24 <+SpaceManiac> yes, definitely on esper
11:25 < nevercast> join #brackets
11:25 < nevercast> HURR
11:25 < nevercast> Y U NO SLASH
11:25 <+SpaceManiac> I feel your pain.
11:26 < dx> that feel when no slash
11:28 < TkTech> Well, the Mojang guys did a pretty good job of shutting this down quick.
11:28 < nevercast> Is this the bukkit fiasco?
11:28 < nevercast> I heard some radio chatter about this
11:28 < nevercast> s/radio/teamspeak/
11:29 < dx> yeah i heard about it in CB radio
11:30 < dx> (citizen's band, not craftbukkit)
11:30 < TkTech> Lies, after 2AM all CB radio within 2000km of Montreal is techno.
11:30 < dx> TkTech: really? that's awesome
11:30 < dx> and i'm nowhere near canada
11:31 < TkTech> More often then not, although it's been 6+ years since I drove a truck.
11:32 < nevercast> It's been 22+ years since I drove a truck.
11:33 < Grum> md_5: why drama?
11:33 <+md_5> .......
11:34 < Grum> yes, Bukkit was silently owned by Mojang, but Mojang was intentionally mitts-off as to not influence the project
11:34 <+md_5> you are saying IM creating drama?
11:34 < Grum> extra drama =)
11:34 < TkTech> nevercast: Ever driven a B-train full of methadone through a southern Qubec snowstorm at ~4 in the morning?
11:34 < nevercast> TkTech, I don't think so
11:35 < nevercast> I'm only 22 years old, so I've no memory before then :P
11:35 < TkTech> ~_~
11:35 < Spurlex> Why cant we all be friendsssss
11:35 < Grum> md_5: lawyers for what?
11:35 <+md_5> Grum I don't even know how to reply to that.
11:35 < nevercast> TkTech, Sorry lol..
11:35 < TkTech> Spurlex: We are! Sometimes we bicker but tomorrow everyone will make up.
11:35 <+md_5> I'll just go to my maths instead.
11:36 < nevercast> TkTech, Also screw that drive
11:36 < Grum> md_5: your tweet is rather suggestive but I'm not really seeing what the use is :/
11:36 < dx> let's just assume Grum just implied that spigot is perfectly legal and we can forget all this happened, ok?
11:36 <+md_5> because a supposedly lgpl licensed project which we are based on has been secretly owned by a commercial for profit company?
11:36 < Spurlex> Or lets ask… Is spigot legal? :D
11:36 < TkTech> nevercast: Yeah. GoJIT. Sent a teenager with just barely his AZ on a multi-million dollar methadone run with no helper.
11:37 <+md_5> can you perhaps see why I MIGHT want to invest in proper legal advice.
11:37 < TkTech> Great company.
11:37 < dx> md_5: that's a better way of saying it
11:37 < Grum> md_5: the setup was dodgy even without Mojang owning Bukkit
11:37 < enchilado> md_5: is it not possible for an lgpl project to be owned by a for-profit company?
11:37 < TkTech> enchilado: It is, dual licences are a thing.
11:37 < TkTech> So is a retroactive licence.
11:37 < enchilado> So what's the issue?
11:38 < TkTech> I have no idea.
11:38 <+md_5> enchilado in something as legally gray as bukkit......
11:38 < TkTech> What's gray about it now?
11:38 < dx> TkTech: retroactive licenses are a thing, but a very tricky thing
11:38 <+md_5> dx 150 chars in a tweet or w/e
11:38 < TkTech> Mojang just says they've owned and basically sponsored it for two years.
11:38 < Spurlex> I hope spigot is legal. I like spigot.
11:39 < Grum> no, we've sponsored nothing
11:39 < Spurlex> Its nice.
11:39 < Grum> and that hasn't been said anywhere
11:39 <+Fador> all the contributors must sign away their part of the code to get rid of GPL..?
11:39 < Grum> Mojang has nothing to do with Bukkit except for two of the owners/founders being employees and legally owning it
11:39 < TkTech> I didn't mean to imply a monetary sponsorship, I can't think of the word I'm looking for.
11:39 < dx> TkTech: "hiring devs as employees"
11:40 < Grum> dx: that has little to do with Bukkit other than that it put us on the radar of Mojang
11:40 < dx> yeah
11:40 <+Amaranth> I think he means Mojang owning the project shipping CraftBukkit as LGPL is different than Mojang pretending to not see it?
11:40 < TkTech> ^
11:40 < dx> also, what about the GPL incompatibility?
11:40 < dx> is that solved now?
11:41 < nevercast> MIT all the things?
11:41 < dx> no, relicensing isn't that trivial
11:41 < TkTech> You need to hunt down all of the contributors and get new agreements signed.
11:41 < nevercast> What?
11:41 < nevercast> Why?
11:41 < nevercast> It's Bukkit
11:42 < dx> because each contributor owns their part of the copyright
11:42 < TkTech> Becaus they contributed under an agreement that put it under the LGPL.
11:42 < nevercast> It has no financial value imo
11:42 < TkTech> IP doesn't need to have monetary value.
11:42 < Drainedsoul> I'm really glazed over now
11:42 < nevercast> Eugh
11:42 < Drainedsoul> intellectual "property" lol
11:42 < nevercast> Does MIT have IP concerns?
11:42 < dx> dammit Drainedsoul
11:42 < Drainedsoul> just Unlicense everything
11:42 < nevercast> ^
11:42 < nevercast> :P
11:42 < nevercast> It's the only way to group dev
11:42 < dx> nevercast: every software license works according to the copyright law
11:42 < nevercast> Otherwise people get possessive
11:42 < TkTech> Grum: I'm guess you guys will do a quick blog post or an FAQ at some point?
11:42 < TkTech> In which case we can all stop guessing.
11:43 < Thinkofdeath> TkTech: guessing is half the fun
11:43 < dx> ^
11:43 < Grum> more than the tweet we just did? nope
11:43 < dx> Grum: seriously you should
11:43 < nevercast> dx, I'm not entirely sure how that works - but now I'm going to have to reconsider my what license I use in the future
11:43 < TkTech> "Grum" on twitter is not our grum...
11:43 < TkTech> That's a scary twitter page...
11:44 < Spurlex> So Grum is Spigot legal?
11:44 < dx> he isn't a lawyer
11:44 < Drainedsoul> who cares
11:44 < TkTech> I don't think he can answer that.
11:44 < nevercast> ^
11:44 < nevercast> I'm with Drainedsoul :P
11:44 < enchilado> TkTech: https://twitter.com/_grum
11:45 < Spurlex> follow4follow plz
11:45 < Spurlex> ;)
11:45 < Kavukamari> ugh i guess i should just never log out ever even if there's a problem
11:45 < Kavukamari> i swear every time something weird happens and I have to log out, the auth servers are down lol
11:45 < nevercast> Haha
11:45 < dx> guys guys, let's look on the bright side: the 1.8 update might come sooner
11:46 < nevercast> Kavukamari, Your own server? Or another server? Or Singleplayer?
11:46 < dx> and that's thanks to evilseph
11:46 < Kavukamari> a friend's server
11:46 < nevercast> Kavukamari, Make a custom auth server :P That auths you when auth servers are down
11:46 < Kavukamari> yeah we totally should i keep telling him that
11:47 < eddyb> I have a revolutionary idea
11:47 < enchilado> dx: is there a side to look on that is not bright?
11:47 < eddyb> how about using more redundancy in the official auth servers?
11:47 < dx> enchilado: plenty of people are being very negative about this
11:47 < enchilado> Unless there's something I'm not aware of yet, it looks like it's just md_5 worrying over almost nothing.
11:47 < eddyb> so, you know, it doesn't keep going down
11:47 < TkTech> eddyb: You're a dev, you know it's not that easy.
11:48 < TkTech> Look at Steam. They've had a lot longer to get it right.
11:48 < dx> enchilado: md_5 is worrying about bukkit being legally clear and spigot being grayer than ever
11:48 < nevercast> ^
11:48 < enchilado> md_5: how is it more grey than it was before?
11:48 < enchilado> Whut
11:48 < enchilado> dx*
11:49 < dx> enchilado: see evilseph's post about the reasons to stop craftbukkit, now apply that to spigot
11:49 < dx> it may not apply directly
11:49 < dx> but we don't know
11:50 < enchilado> Does Mojang owning Bukkit affcet his situation in any way, though?
11:50 < dx> we don't know
11:50 < dx> but the EULA is being enforced now and distributing jars is forbidden by it
11:50 < enchilado> The EULA hasn't changed, has it?
11:50 < Drainedsoul> my eyes rolled pretty hard
11:50 < Drainedsoul> this could be harmful
11:50 < redstonehelper> eddyb: yes, the tall grass bounding box is 14x14 pixels in footprint afaik
11:51 < dx> Drainedsoul: ?
11:51 < eddyb> redstonehelper: had a talk with Grvm, all I need is to apply the offset and I've had the decompiled code in front of me for hours
11:51 < eddyb> redstonehelper: then drama happened
11:51 < dx> Drainedsoul: your disregard for law doesn't apply in the real world, sorry
11:51 < nevercast> enchilado, EULA changed slightly
11:51 < nevercast> Or was revised, reenforced etc
11:51 < enchilado> I thought they just started enforcing it
11:52 < nevercast> Yes
11:52 < nevercast> The issue is
11:52 < nevercast> The EULA states that we cannot redistrubute anything made by Mojang
11:52 < nevercast> and if Bukkit is owned by Mojang, then projects like Spigot become Grey
11:52 < nevercast> Due to being a fork/hack/extension
11:52 < dx> spigot and bukkit already were grey
11:52 < Kavukamari> is the wording Made by mojang or Owned by mojang
11:53 < Drainedsoul> dx: It's worked out pretty well so far
11:53 < dx> Drainedsoul: lol
11:53 < nevercast> "Must not distribute anything we've made"
11:53 < Thinkofdeath> Well there is always this part of the eula "mods (or plugins, or tools) are cool (you can distribute those)"
11:53 < Grum> md_5: you own spigot?
11:53 <+Amaranth> dx: Apparently Bukkit has never been grey because Mojang owned it
11:53 <+Amaranth> (news to me!)
11:53 < enchilado> Bukkit was not owned by Mojang originally
11:53 < Grum> no it has always been a gray area
11:53 < dx> Amaranth: before they bought it, it certainly was
11:53 < Grum> and still is
11:53 < Grum> the licences on the project are completely arbitrary
11:54 < dx> true
11:54 < dx> gpl + lgpl simultaneously...
11:54 < Drainedsoul> aren't licenses in general completely arbitrary?
11:54 < dx> Drainedsoul: pls
11:54 < Goldman60> Arbitrary but at the same time legally binding
11:54 < Thinkofdeath> Drainedsoul: The main issue is the lgpl license on a code based with property code
11:55 < nevercast> I hate licences on Open Source projects so much (Beyond, Founder and appointed persons have final say and control to steer the project)
11:55 < Drainedsoul> nevercast: Dude, Unlicense
11:55 < TkTech> That has nothing to do with the licence nevercast oO
11:55 < TkTech> That's a company charter, not a licence.
11:55 < greymerk> Drainedsoul: wtfpl
11:55 < nevercast> TkTech, Okay - so firstly I must ask, Bukkit was GPL or LGPL before aquisition?
11:56 < dx> nevercast: both
11:56 < Thinkofdeath> nevercast: Bukkit GPL, CraftBukkit LGPL
11:56 < TkTech> That is an...interesting thing.
11:56 < nevercast> Ok
11:56 < nevercast> Which version?
11:56 < TkTech> Forever, 2011 at least.
11:56 < dx> ah yeah, bukkit is definitely GPL
11:56 < Thinkofdeath> nevercast: v3
11:57 < enchilado> So basically, spigot was breaking the EULA for years and now they're complaining because Mojang is starting to care? Or am I misunderstanding?
11:57 < dx> uhhhm
11:58 < Thinkofdeath> enchilado: no more than bukkit
11:58 < dx> s/spigot/bukkit/
11:58 < dx> and then bukkit's situation got sort-of-fixed
11:58 < nevercast> LGPL against GPL is so hazy!
11:58 < enchilado> But bukkit aren't the one saying they're going to need lawyers
11:58 < nevercast> What a horrible licence
11:59 < dx> the few remaining bukkit devs are "retired", sorta.
11:59 < dx> evilseph certainly is
11:59 < TkTech> The lawyer thing is weird, Mojang has never to my knowledge taken legal action against devs.
11:59 < nevercast> So is CraftBukkit dependent on Bukkit? Or will it work with another API in it's place?
11:59 < TkTech> Takedowns, sure, but that's a different beast.
11:59 < TkTech> Hell, Notch supplied part of our wiki.
11:59 < Thinkofdeath> enchilado: that was more to ask about legal issues, not against mojang or anything
12:00 < dx> nevercast: the other way around. bukkit depends on craftbukkit. bukkit is clean, craftbukkit is not
12:00 < enchilado> It really seems to me like people are worrying over nothing.
12:00 < TkTech> At this point yes.
12:00 < TkTech> No one knows anything.
12:00 < enchilado> Thinkofdeath: the tone seemed to imply otherwise, but maybe that was only to me.
12:00 < TkTech> Everyone is just guessing.
12:00 < Thinkofdeath> enchilado: <+md_5> can you perhaps see why I MIGHT want to invest in proper legal advice.
12:00 < nevercast> Hey our lives are boring, we gotta make drama man
12:00 < dx> enchilado: 06:38 <+md_5> dx 150 chars in a tweet or w/e
12:00 < Thinkofdeath> but meh, i'm not really following anymore
12:00 < Thinkofdeath> too confusing :3
12:01 < Drainedsoul> Thinkofdeath: I tried investing in proper legal advice once.
12:01 < TkTech> Yeah, coffee time.
12:01 < enchilado> Yeah, fair enough. So it's just people assuming there's drama where there isn't?
12:01 < TkTech> Come back in 24 hours see where it's at.
12:01 < Drainedsoul> Thinkofdeath: Turned out that was cost prohibitive.
12:01 < nevercast> *sips coffee*.. Sound advice TkTech 
12:01  * Thinkofdeath doesn't like coffee
12:01  * Thinkofdeath hides
12:01 < Drainedsoul> I don't like coffee either
12:01 < dx> enchilado: not drama, just a fucked up legal situation lampshaded
12:01 < Drainedsoul> dx: Aren't most legal situations fucked up?
12:01 < dx> Drainedsoul: no
12:02 < dx> unless you mean in the context of game modding, in that case probably yes
12:02 < nevercast> Haha
12:02 < nevercast> Ya know -- most the time, modders and game hackers, don't care, and they do okay
12:02 < nevercast> We should just keep doing that
12:02 < nevercast> It works
12:02 < enchilado> dx: people seem to be treating it as drama.
12:03 < dx> enchilado: people love doing that
12:03 < nevercast> The Bukkit stack isn't even on Mojangs agenda, so really nothing needs to change in light of this EULA BS
12:03 < nevercast> Mojang will just wave it on like they always have, because of how big the community is
12:03 < dx> eh
12:04 < enchilado> dx: it's better than ranting about what a terrible person Zoe Quinn is, anyway.
12:04 < dx> hahah
12:04 < dx> true that
12:05 <+Amaranth> dx: Bukkit is certainly not clean
12:05 < dx> Amaranth: :(
12:05 <+Amaranth> Bits of it are basically Mojang code copy/pasted with proper names and calling API instead of internals
12:06 < nevercast> Ha ^
12:07 < nevercast> Every Forge 'Machine' in the entire cesspit of Forge mods, has copied and pasted something from a Furnace or an Anvil at some point
12:08 < Thinkofdeath> a lot of custom server and client implementations took the varint code from my gist which was in turn taken from vanilla :P
12:08 < Thinkofdeath> nothing is really clean from mojang code
12:08 < dx> dammit Thinkofdeath
12:08 < nevercast> Haha
12:09 < nevercast> Thinkofdeath, You have doomed us all, cuff me now
12:09 < Thinkofdeath> \o/
12:09 < greymerk> in fairness, some of the basic ideas of how machines work are so general it doesn't matter. copying ideas (and sometimes code) is pretty fundamental to programming.
12:09 < greymerk> my coding is made easier by NOT trying to copy mojang code
12:09 <+Amaranth> Thinkofdeath: Didn't that code start from the java version of protobuf?
12:09 < nevercast> No no greymerk You can't use a for loop inside an if block.. because that is in Vanilla
12:09 < nevercast> (I am joking, yes yes )
12:10 < Thinkofdeath> Amaranth: no where Grum got it from, but i'm pretty sure he wrote it his-self
12:10 < dx> hahah massive strikethrough http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/bukkit-its-time-to-say.305106/
12:10 < Thinkofdeath> Amaranth: pretty sure protocol buf zig-zag encodes ints anyway
12:10 < nevercast> dx, Yeah I saw that lol
12:11 < dx> "it's time to say [REDACTED]"
12:11 < nevercast> "I need to be honest with you all and tell you [REDACTED]" - Username [BANNED]
12:11  * nevercast tightens tinfoil hat
12:12 < dx> we would like to thank [REDACTED] for all their [REDACTED] and especially [REDACTED] for [REDACTED]ing
12:12 < nevercast> dx, Do you have a spare second monitor? I would like one very much
12:12 < dx> nevercast: i only sell useless cheap chinese gadgets
12:13 < nevercast> Ha
12:13 < nevercast> Oh that reminds me!
12:13 < nevercast> I bought a car USB charger from you 2 weeks ago
12:13 < nevercast> I put it in to the lighter socket
12:13 < nevercast> It snapped in half
12:13 < nevercast> I'd like my $3.68 back
12:13 < dx> working as expected
12:13 < dx> won't fix
12:13 < nevercast> HAHA
12:14 < nevercast> I threw it across the road and had to charge my phone via headunit at a shitty 0.3amps
12:15 < nevercast> bower, install ze AngularJS already!
12:15 < nevercast> eugh
12:28 < dx> blatantly offtopic question: can anyone suggest any TODO list management software/service/thing?
12:29 < dx> i think i'd like something that works like github's issue tracker, but... i'm not going to pay for a private repo just to track that
12:30 < cindy_k> I've been using asana on and off
12:30 < cindy_k> its not bad for a project task list
12:30 < cindy_k> and free
12:30 < Drainedsoul> just put TODO comments in your code and grep?
12:30 < Drainedsoul> ;)
12:31 < cindy_k> lol
12:31 < dx> oh it's not for code
12:31 < cindy_k> some todo's aren't for the code
12:31 < dx> it's for my life in general
12:31 < cindy_k> asana has web and android client
12:37 < dx> hm, looks neat, will consider. i've tried this thing before https://unfuddle.com/ - and was fairly decent but at some point i realized i had to keep writing userscripts / shell scripts to patch it up where it was missing functionality. not cool.
12:43 < Kavukamari> it always bothered me that there's no way to get small suggestions noticed fast
12:44 < Kavukamari> like ones that are tiny and easy to implement which would be extremely beneficial, but perhaps not all that interesting enough to become a forum phenomena with thousands of supporters
12:44 < dx> Kavukamari: unfuddle had a really nice textbox where i always typed small suggestions and got replies straight from humans, that was cool
12:45 < Kavukamari> unfuddle?
12:45 < dx> oh uhm are you talking about minecraft?
12:45 < Kavukamari> yeah for minecraft
12:45 < dx> whoops.
12:45 < dx> getting replies from humans is impossible in this scale :D
12:46 < dx> for every suggestion, that is.
12:46 < Kavukamari> like an example is things like new nbt tags or target selectors, nobody will ever care enough about command blocks for singular suggestions of that nature to become popular
12:46 < Kavukamari> only the select few map makers and redstoneers would even notice
12:47 < dx> good thing mojang has special preference for a few select map makers
12:48 < dx> also i think i interpreted what you meant incorrectly, yay.
12:49 < dx> Kavukamari: the problem with feature suggestions in general is that most of them are absolute crap
12:49 < dx> and often what seems "small", "simple" for some people is a nightmare to actually implement
12:49 < Kavukamari> i can understand that notion
12:50 < dx> small feature request: make mobs not clip out of cages! just put an if (mob.outside())
12:51 < dx> so in the end it's much more efficient to ignore them, or put huge awkward filters
12:51 < Kavukamari> well yeah that particular one is a misunderstanding how the game actually works 
12:52 < Kavukamari> but it was just an example, obviously :P
12:52 < dx> a particularly blatant one, but with the massive userbase that minecraft has, you can be sure most people don't really understand what they are requesting
12:53 < Kavukamari> im afraid to give examples because I'd be tooting my own suggestion horn cause all i can think of are ideas that I actually do want
12:54 < dx> hahah
12:55 < Kavukamari> something simple in my mind is propagating NBT tags to other entities
12:56 < dx> like when breeding?
12:56 < Kavukamari> like entity A has something that also makes sense on entity B, just add the ability over to B to have the tag
12:56 < Kavukamari> oh I mean at the fundamental level
12:56 < Fenhl> how about craftable saddles. a lot of people want those, but the devs have said that they like saddles as difficult to obtain as they are now
12:56 < Kavukamari> not gameplay wise
12:57 < Kavukamari> I guess I'm thinking less of content suggestions and more of suggestions that extend the current power of systems already implemented
12:59 < Kavukamari> I like the idea of the command block system being as powerful and extensible as it possibly can be so that nobody runs into any limitation pitfalls when they are trying to make adventure maps
13:00 < dx> lua interpreter in command blocks when
13:00 < Kavukamari> that might be a bit mugh
13:00 < Kavukamari> much*
13:00 < dx> i estimate 2050
13:00 < dx> and will probably not be called "lua" by that point
13:01 < dx> but at this rate it's inevitable
13:02 < Kavukamari> i think the way command blocks work currently is fine, if hacky at times, we don't really need to implement a coding language into them, however there are still limitations in the way certain commands work
13:02 < eddyb> dx: Minecraft 3.2: now with command block JIT
13:02 < eddyb> (for Mill, because it will take that long for 3.2 to come out)
13:03 < Thinkofdeath> I don't like command blocks :/ Kinda wish they when a different route
13:03 < Thinkofdeath> doing it all with commands seem less minecrafty
13:03 < eddyb> dx: doesn't it remind you of another language?
13:03 < Kavukamari> what don't you like about them?
13:03 < dx> eddyb: js?
13:03 < eddyb> mhmm
13:03 < eddyb> dx: have you watched the birth and death of yavascript?
13:03 < eddyb> sorry, javascript
13:04 < dx> is that some sort of documentary?
13:04 < Thinkofdeath> Kavukamari: Just kinda killed everything else, its pretty much command block only nowadays
13:04 < eddyb> dx: https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript
13:04 < eddyb> dx: yupp
13:04 < Thinkofdeath> I miss the large redstone machines
13:04 < eddyb> dx: it's kinda old though
13:04 < Thinkofdeath> pistons were great for that
13:04 < eddyb> being in the '30s and whatnot
13:04 < Kavukamari> I suppose that's what happens when something incredibly powerful gets introduced
13:04 < dx> Thinkofdeath: "killed everything else", including bukkit
13:05 < Thinkofdeath> dx: lol
13:05 < eddyb> Thinkofdeath: I miss instant piston redstone magic
13:05 < dx> minecraft 1.8 feature: command blocks now have java plugin support
13:05 < eddyb> Thinkofdeath: and nobody did anything impressive with the analog redstone that I was going to make a complete CPU out of
13:05 < Kavukamari> I still see the fun in building redstone machines though
13:05 < Kavukamari> my friend and I are still working on our RPG machine
13:05 < eddyb> 3 blocks per tick is terrible
13:06 < Thinkofdeath> dx: I already kinda added javascript support to them once :3
13:06 < Kavukamari> hm? 3 blocks per tick?
13:06 < eddyb> Kavukamari: analog redstone
13:06 < dx> Thinkofdeath: seriously? that's evil
13:06 < Kavukamari> oh I remember that haha
13:06 < eddyb> comparator, solid block, redstone dust
13:06 < Kavukamari> might as well scrap it and go instant
13:06 < eddyb> but... 8 bits in 2x2!
13:06 < Thinkofdeath> dx: Made a javascript plugin loader for bukkit + straight up in-game javascript support :P
13:07 < eddyb> my byte RAM cell was 6x6x6
13:07 < Kavukamari> my friend and I were considering a comparator hard drive but we never gor around to it
13:07 < Thinkofdeath> Just so I could play with java 8's nashorn js engine
13:07 <+Amaranth> Thinkofdeath: Wolvereness did that with Groovy
13:07 <+Amaranth> It's called DevBukkit
13:07 < dx> Thinkofdeath: oh i thought you meant a vanilla mod to load javascript from commandblocks. i knew about the plugin loaders
13:07 < dx> Amaranth: that's a terrible name
13:07 <+Amaranth> heh
13:08 <+Amaranth> It's an old plugin, it used to just listen to every event and print debug spew about them
13:08 < eddyb> Kavukamari: why HDD?
13:08 <+Amaranth> He made it into something completely different but kept the name, only he really knew how to use it though :P
13:08 < Kavukamari> because it's compact storage being able to hold 16 values in a bit
13:08 < Thinkofdeath> dx: nah I don't do vanilla mods often
13:08 < dx> i'm going to make a bukkit plugin to talk directly to kernel-mode code, and call it BukkitDev
13:09 < eddyb> anyways, 64 ticks to read a byte from a 256B RAM layer just sucks
13:09 < Kavukamari> commandblocks now with external program access through assemply code
13:09 < Kavukamari> bly*
13:09 < eddyb> it is like true RAM, but you don't have a tick rate of a couple GHz
13:09 < Kavukamari> our redstone team also had a lot of fun with instant read ram
13:10 < Kavukamari> instant read instant write 1 tick reset
13:10 < eddyb> dammit
13:10 < dx> hacks.
13:10 < eddyb> Kavukamari: I need to make something large-scale with that
13:10 < eddyb> and then complete hematite, JITting parts of a world
13:10 < dx> has anyone made something like a "redstone machine compiler"?
13:11 < eddyb> to the point where simulating a CPU in minecraft becomes simulating a CPU in machine code
13:11 < dx> something that generates redstone layouts based on some source code
13:11 < eddyb> and then you can just inline the ROM
13:11 < Kavukamari> ooh my favorite dumb useless thing I made was instant on instant off 1 tick "cooldown" piston diode and not gate
13:11 < eddyb> and you end up with dynamic binary translation
13:11 < Kavukamari> they were massive though
13:11 < Kavukamari> like 4x3x4 i think
13:11 < Kavukamari> i forget
13:12 < eddyb> I hate that I couldn't use pistons properly
13:12 < Kavukamari> why not?
13:12 < eddyb> like, to push/pull a redstone block, you can't use vertical pistons
13:12 < eddyb> which might have made the design more compact
13:12 < Kavukamari> ah yeah you cant push them up
13:12 < Kavukamari> down works though doesnt it
13:12 < eddyb> but still nowhere near acceptable speeds
13:12 < Kavukamari> you can now with slime blocks cant you
13:13 < Kavukamari> push up
13:13 < eddyb> deebee hinted at an instawire of sorts (with limitations, ofc) that I I thought I could maybe use to complete my CPU/RAM assembly
13:13 < eddyb> Kavukamari: OH!
13:13 < eddyb> I didn't think of slime blocks
13:13 < Kavukamari> i still hate the 12 block limit on pushing
13:14 < Kavukamari> hahaha 1x3x1 vertical bud
13:14 < Thinkofdeath> Amaranth: Interesting plugin
13:14 < Kavukamari> well 1x4x1 with the push space
13:15 < Kavukamari> up piston, slime block on top, redstoneblockon top of that
13:16 < Thinkofdeath> Amaranth: The plugin loader system in bukkit kinda sucks :P
13:16 <+Amaranth> Yep
13:18 < Thinkofdeath> ended up manually loading the js plugins since that part doesn't work
13:18 < Thinkofdeath> and the fact that bukkit only allows for yml plugin descriptions is a pain
13:19  * Thinkofdeath might convert javascript objects into yml to work around that
13:20 < Kavukamari> anyone know why itemframes won't show their customname above them?
13:21 < Thinkofdeath> Kavukamari: they use the name of the item inside them instead
13:22 < Kavukamari> hmm i guess they still have an sir in them when there's no item as well..
13:22 < Kavukamari> air*
13:23 < Kavukamari> what a bother.. I wish it would show the item frame's name instead if there was no named item
13:23 < Kavukamari> I suppose I could add named items to all of my item frames one at a time
13:26 < Kavukamari> I wish target selectors had dot notation and could be used anywhere in commands..
13:27 < Kavukamari> of course then a ton of new dot notation things would be needed unless you could use nbt compounds or something
13:28 < Kavukamari> anyone build anything interesting with command blocks lately?
13:36 < dx> cindy_k: holy shit asana is so good.
13:38 < Fenhl> eddyb: that talk is amazing
13:38 < eddyb> yava
13:39 < Kavukamari> was it unintentional for entities that aren't players to be able to be added to teams? it sure is a convenient mistake if it was
13:42 < eddyb> using UUIDs?
13:42 < Kavukamari> I'm using target selectors, but I think those work too
13:44 < Kavukamari> I try not to use uuid's cause they change so much and they're clunky and hard to type
13:44 < Kavukamari> well they change if your entity despawns i mean
13:58 < Kavukamari> sigh I guess I have to use paintings as pointer entities rather than item frames if item frames wont show their name
14:04 < Kavukamari> if you ask me, CustomNameVisible should override all other name behaviors and force the [CustomName visible constantly] behavior, that makes the most sense to me
14:05 < eddyb> consistent behavior?
14:05 < eddyb> have you forgotten this is a game? more importantly, have you forgotten we're talking about minecraft?
14:07 < Kavukamari> wait is this against my assertation or neutral to it i cant tell with text
14:08 < eddyb> Kavukamari: I'm mocking the context
14:09 < eddyb> why do people want minecraft to be perfect? that can only lead to frustration :P
14:09 < Kavukamari> yeah that's what I thought ok good
14:13 < Kavukamari> like with mobs and item frames, the names that do show do so automatically without CustomNameVisible, so setting that on should do what it naturally does, which is force the specified name on constantly
14:16 < Kavukamari> I'm at the time of night where I can't tell if I'm hungry or just in pain from ignoring sleepiness...
14:23 < cindy_k> Grum / Dinnerbone could you add a note that you are updating to the crossed out forum post?
14:24 < cindy_k> it would help calm some of the panic'd peeps who don't twitter that I am getting
14:27 < Kavukamari> the thing that blew me away about the eula junk was that the changes were benefiting servers and people thought it was the end of the world because of the "enforcing eula" and "changing slightly" parts
14:36 < Kavukamari> so with serverside resourcepacks, you could add separate sound events for each sound so you could play specific noises ?
14:41 < Fenhl> wait, have they changed the eula yet?
14:41 < Kavukamari> i have no clue
14:42 < cindy_k> they aren't changing the eula
14:42 < cindy_k> https://help.mojang.com/customer/portal/articles/1590522-minecraft-commercial-use
14:43 < Kavukamari> so it's just the actual enforcing part, no changes then?
14:43 < cindy_k> well the eula says no monetization at all
14:43 < cindy_k> everything else is talk
14:51 < Kavukamari> I'm liking the acceptable monetization post, it's basically saying "stop scamming people"
14:55 < humerusj> hi
14:55 < Kavukamari> yo
14:55 < humerusj> This whole bukkit closing thing is pretty interesting
14:56 < cindy_k> its not closing, https://twitter.com/Dinnerbone/statuses/502389963606867968
14:56 < humerusj> cindy_k: Oh, didn't know Mojang owned the project.
14:57 < cindy_k> they are having a management shift. what that will mean going forward after 1.8 is tbd
15:44 < Kavukamari> im gunna start gearing down for bed
17:56 < nickelpro> eddyb: there's a horizontal offset? Why in the world would there be a horizontal offset?
17:56 < nickelpro> whoops
17:56 < nickelpro> ignore that
17:56 < eddyb> lol
18:25 < bgale> I wonder what this means for the non-mojang bukkit team
18:25 < bgale> Will they be downing tools?
20:32 < Not-9d73> [Glowstone] SpaceManiac pushed 6 commits [+4/-0/±16] http://git.io/6K5EXQ
20:32 < Not-9d73> [Glowstone] SpaceManiac 1557a2a - Started on better window click handling.
20:32 < Not-9d73> [Glowstone] SpaceManiac ff34e7f - Minor documentation and test improvements.
20:32 < Not-9d73> [Glowstone] SpaceManiac a9be4c8 - Revamped WindowClickHandler to make use of WindowClickLogic.
20:32 < Not-9d73> [Glowstone] ... and 3 more commits.
20:33 < dx> \o/
20:37 <+AndrewPH> top kek this whole bukket thing
20:48 <+SirCmpwn> what's going on with bukkit?
20:49 < redstonehelper> SirCmpwn: copied/pasted from another channel, slightly biased: evilseph, the lead guy on bukkit, decided mojang is literally hitler and stopped all work on bukkit, but then mojang swept in, told him bukkit is mojang property and will live on, even if he won't work on it
20:49 < redstonehelper> maybe more than slightly
20:49 <+SirCmpwn> wow, what assholes
20:49 <+SpaceManiac> Seph quit, Mojang owned Bukkit the whole time and Dinner will be performing the 1.8 update
20:49 < redstonehelper> I might need to add that bukkit was sold to mojang a while ago
20:49 <+SirCmpwn> everyone involved being assholes, that is
20:49 <+SirCmpwn> no particular side
20:50 < redstonehelper> it was sold when the bukkit guys were hired at mojang
20:50 < redstonehelper> what makes you think of seph as an asshole, what makes you think of mojang as assholes?
20:51 < M4GNV5> you are talking about the bukkit ending or not stuff thing?
20:52 < redstonehelper> yep
20:52 <+SirCmpwn> well
20:52 < dx> END OF THE WORLD
20:52 < M4GNV5> ahh ps hi SirCmpwn
20:52 <+SirCmpwn> I don't neccessarily believe that any of them are assholes
20:52 <+SirCmpwn> I think they are all _acting_ like assholes
20:52 <+SirCmpwn> seph for discontinuing a project that is important to many people
20:53 < M4GNV5> but anyways wasnt that clear? i saw some ppl of the mojang team hanging out here a long time ago
20:53 <+SirCmpwn> mojang for stepping in and forcing their hand
20:53 < dx> ehhh you just got one sentence describing it in a biased way, no need to jump to conclusions like that
20:53 < redstonehelper> I think he should be allowed to stop doing it, but it is asshole-ish to stop everyone else working on it from doing it
20:53 <+SirCmpwn> and mojang especially for promising a mod API years ago and appeasing youtubers instead the whole time
20:53 <+SirCmpwn> okay, maybe mojang are persistent assholes, rather than just acting like them at the moment
20:54 <+SirCmpwn> and I did look up some info and do some external research about it, dx 
20:54 < dx> SirCmpwn: the main reason (or rather, the final nail in the coffin) for evilseph's decision was the EULA being enforced by mojang, which leaves bukkit's legal situation in fucked up status
20:54 < dx> it made sense to me
20:54 <+SirCmpwn> well, mojang has been complete shits about their EULAs and such lately
20:54 < redstonehelper> it made sense until mojang came out and said they own bukkit
20:54 < dx> yup
20:54 <+SirCmpwn> and bukkit has always been in figuratively hot water from a legal standpoint
20:55 < dx> well yeah, but there was no threat
20:55 <+SirCmpwn> mmhm
20:55 <+SirCmpwn> like I said, assholes as far as the eye can see
20:55 < redstonehelper> what a lovely picture
20:55 < dx> hahah
20:55 < M4GNV5> ^^
20:55 < nickelpro> So how exactly do you "sell" an open source project?
20:55 < nickelpro> change the license holder?
20:56 <+SirCmpwn> presumably
20:56 < dx> sorta
20:56 < dx> it's vague
20:56 <+Ac-town> in theory yes
20:56 <+Ac-town> but did bukkit get that signed off from all commiters?
20:56 <+SirCmpwn> not related to bukkit, but some open source projects use GPL and then sell permissive licenses
20:56 < nickelpro> I assume since Bukkit doesn't have a CLA that each commiter owns his code
20:56 < dx> Ac-town: nope, Amaranth has said he didn't know anything
20:57 <+SirCmpwn> hmm, I just realized that
20:57  * SirCmpwn pops some popcorn
20:57 <+Ac-town> but if all of bukkits code is in the open, mojang could just fork it
20:57 < nickelpro> And I don't really see seph signing over his code to mojand
20:57 <+Ac-town> and keep working on it
20:57 < nickelpro> Ac-town: Ya obviously, but mojang is going on about "owning" bukkit
20:57 < dx> it's not a license change anyway, it probably only gives a new meaning to the copyright that is already owned by the core bukkit devs
20:57 < nickelpro> It's not a concern, just a weird point that keeps being brought up
20:57 <+Ac-town> i'd bet its poor choice of words
20:57 <+Ac-town> and them freaking out
20:58 <+Ac-town> as bukkit saved the minecraft server market
20:58 < dx> heh
20:58 < dx> definitely worth freaking out
20:58 < redstonehelper> there's a very little bit of more info here, a comment by UMM: http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/2e5u6a/bukkit_says_goodbye_to_modding/cjwkgwv?context=3
20:58 < redstonehelper> "Mojang "took over" two and a half years ago when EvilSeph, Db, Grvm and Tahg were hired, in the form of buying Bukkit (the name and the code) from Curse for a token amount."
20:59 <+SirCmpwn> they would have never had this problem if they had actually built a modding API
20:59 <+Ac-town> i'd think at that point bukkit was clear in the EULA
20:59 <+SirCmpwn> at this rate there won't be a modding API until long after minecraft has fallen into irrelevance
20:59 <+Ac-town> SirCmpwn: it sounds like that'll happen "soon"
20:59 <+SirCmpwn> but no!
20:59 <+AndrewPH> tl;dr: eula fud caused stupid bs to happen and this is all overly dramatic and dumb
20:59 <+SirCmpwn> let's add more commands
21:00 <+SirCmpwn> that'll be great, won't it
21:00 <+Ac-town> dont forget twitch support
21:00  * SpaceManiac shakes fist at command blocks
21:00 <+AndrewPH> itt: ac-town is a tree
21:00 < redstonehelper> do you think they'll work towards the api without adding any sort of features at all?
21:00 <+SirCmpwn> sethbling desperately needs a command for creating random entities
21:00 <+Ac-town> tree?
21:00 <+AndrewPH> yes.
21:00 <+SirCmpwn> drop everything
21:00 <+SirCmpwn> add it
21:00 <+Ac-town> I dun get it
21:00 < dx> redstonehelper: we're literally paying them to do that
21:00 <+AndrewPH> that's fine.
21:00 <+SirCmpwn> redstonehelper: they should have done that a very long time ago
21:00 < dx> (except that we're not)
21:00 < M4GNV5> SirCmpwn: new commands are great ^^ most of the stuff you can build with bukkit etc. you can also build with vanilla now
21:01 < nickelpro> Ok but how did Curse own the code?
21:01 <+SirCmpwn> they should have dropped everything and built a modding API and released a new version where that was the only improvement
21:01 <+SirCmpwn> and they should have done that two years ago
21:01 < redstonehelper> from what I gathered from evilseph's post on the bukkit forums, curse offered some sort of hosting for bukkit when they really needed it
21:01 <+SirCmpwn> M4GNV5: I hate command blocks with a firey passion, you won't convince me
21:01 < dx> nickelpro: they probably owned the name, the code, who knows.
21:02 < dx> curse also owns the souls of the bukkit developers
21:02 < dx> that was part of the contract
21:02 <+SirCmpwn> curse is an aptly named company
21:02 < nickelpro> dx: the name I believe, but Bukkit never had a CLA. Every random code contribution outside the core developers wouldn't be theirs to sell
21:02 <+SirCmpwn> I'm dealing with them now in the Kerbal Space Program world
21:02 < shoghicp> D:
21:02 < M4GNV5> :D
21:03 <+SirCmpwn> here's evilseph's post without strikethroughs and bukkit.org https://gist.github.com/SirCmpwn/b2742577410739895511
21:04  * SirCmpwn reads
21:05 <+Fador> nickelpro: also there's something like "derived work" described in GPL I believe..so changes on top of someone elses code would be forced to GPL
21:05 < nickelpro> Fador: Yes, they would be GPL, but the licenser of the code would be the code author
21:06 < M4GNV5> so now what exactly forbids the new EULA? only stuff like bukkit/spigot? or also stuff like glowstone or partycraft?
21:06 <+SirCmpwn> haha, partycraft, someone actually remembers that exists
21:06 < M4GNV5> yeah ^^ but it seems you dont remember me SirCmpwn :P
21:06 < nickelpro> Fador: Without a CLA you wouldn't be able to transfer ownership of the code base without every code author's approval
21:06 <+SirCmpwn> I only come to #mcdevs these days to rant about Mojang every now and then
21:06 <+SirCmpwn> sorry, M4GNV5 
21:06 < shoghicp> M4GNV5: that's what I've been looking for these days
21:07 <+Fador> nickelpro: yeah, that was my point =)
21:07 < nickelpro> Fador: So they question arises, how is Mojang claiming to own Bukkit?
21:07 < M4GNV5> so in fact i dont really think that e.g. the german law allows you to forbid stuff like glowstone/partycraft...
21:08 <+Fador> nickelpro: that's what I'm also wondering..
21:08 < M4GNV5> SirCmpwn: you shoudlnt know me from #mcdevs ^^ i am banned in #Craft.NET ^^
21:08 < nickelpro> M4GNV5: lol, what did you do?
21:08 <+SirCmpwn> oh really? now I want to know who you are
21:08  * SirCmpwn pulls up logs
21:09 < M4GNV5> :D i were a newbie to github 
21:09 < nickelpro> Ah, offtopic
21:09 < M4GNV5> i told ya that some events in the client werent working
21:09 < M4GNV5> and asked you how i can do pr and all the stuff
21:09 <+SirCmpwn> https://mediacru.sh/QjgVxsuIYWlz
21:10 < M4GNV5> ohh yeah you found it ^^
21:10 < dx> lol
21:10 < dx> good job M4GNV5
21:10 < nickelpro> whoa
21:10 < nickelpro> That's priceless
21:10 <+SirCmpwn> I'm not known for my patience
21:11 < M4GNV5> ^^ everybody was i child one day ;)
21:11 <+SirCmpwn> you still are a child
21:11 <+SirCmpwn> those logs are from May
21:11 < M4GNV5> yeah ^^
21:11 < M4GNV5> may 2013?
21:11 <+SirCmpwn> 2014
21:11 < dx> < M4GNV5> okay sry than why dont you just fix your stuff yourself hmm?
21:11 < M4GNV5> nah they should be older
21:11 < dx> dis guy
21:11 < M4GNV5> thats unfair
21:12 < M4GNV5> SirCmpwn: left the stuff he said...
21:12 <+SirCmpwn> 2014-05-07
21:12 < M4GNV5> lol kay
21:12 < Not-9d73> [Glowstone] SpaceManiac deleted branch inventory
21:12 < dx> that conversation actually started 4 hours before that
21:12  * SirCmpwn sighs
21:13 <+SirCmpwn> here: http://ix.io/dZ9
21:13 < dx> so i'm not surprised he lost patience
21:13 < nickelpro> 4 hours actually sounds like a lot of patience
21:16 < dx> especially for SirCmpwn
21:16  * dx cough
21:16 < M4GNV5> anyways i came here for the discussion about the bukkit thing ^^
21:16 <+SirCmpwn> oh man
21:16 <+SirCmpwn> you were the one that convinced me to ban webchat as a whole
21:16 <+SirCmpwn> hahaha
21:17 < M4GNV5> than i am glad that i dont use webchat anymore :P
21:17 < nickelpro> [20:21:52] <SirCmpwn> the world is made better without webchat [20:57:37] <umby24> ^
21:17 < nickelpro> Made me giggle
21:18 < nickelpro> I'm trying to figure out a sane way to handle entity metadata in C
21:18 < eddyb> C?
21:18 < eddyb> > sane
21:18 < nickelpro> lol
21:19 <+SirCmpwn> I have an implementation in C# that should be fairly easy to translate to C#
21:19 <+SirCmpwn> err, to C
21:19 <+SirCmpwn> https://github.com/SirCmpwn/Craft.Net/blob/master/source/Craft.Net.Common/MetadataDictionary.cs
21:19 < nickelpro> C# is usually easy to translate to C# I find
21:19 <+SirCmpwn> and related files in that directory
21:19 < nickelpro> and thanks SirCmpwn
21:19 < dx> eddyb: you just had to appear out of nowhere to indirectly fanboy about rust
21:20 < nickelpro> Arguments about language superiority and complaining about Mojang is 95% of the reason I lurk this channel
21:20 <+SirCmpwn> rust looks cool but I'm waiting until it settles down before I use it
21:20 < dx> nickelpro: probably because that's 95% of this channel
21:20 < dx> rust sucks
21:20 < dx> not because it does, but because eddyb likes it and i for some reason i like to bother eddyb now
21:20 < M4GNV5> anyone here playing unturned? ^^
21:21 <+SirCmpwn> I'm surprised that the mojang devs still idle here
21:21 <+SirCmpwn> has anyone said anything nice about them in the past year
21:21 < dx> i think we said "thanks" once for the positive changes in 1.7
21:21 < eddyb> SirCmpwn: I thanked Grvm this morning
21:22 < dx> honestly though, i don't know, but we weren't thankful enough for that
21:22 < nickelpro> Grüm
21:22 < dx> nickelpro: not utf-8 detected
21:22 < M4GNV5> nickelpro: dat german ^^
21:22 < dx> nickelpro: the utf-8 police is going to catch you
21:22 <+SirCmpwn> what changed for the better in 1.7
21:23 < M4GNV5> more commands :P
21:23 < dx> SirCmpwn: we harassed them several times to get length prefixed packets and utf-8, we got it
21:23 <+SirCmpwn> oh, that's nice
21:23 < nickelpro> And a shiny new protocol layout for free
21:24 <+SirCmpwn> oh, was it *that* change?
21:24 <+SirCmpwn> no, fuck that update
21:24 < dx> hahah
21:24 < nickelpro> lol, that's how everyone felt at the time
21:24 < dx> even if you don't like the rest of the protocol, we gotta thank them for the length prefixed packets and utf-8, at least.
21:25 <+SirCmpwn> meh
21:25 <+SirCmpwn> varints makes that a pain in the ass anyway
21:25 <+SirCmpwn> I have this in my code now because of that update: private static readonly Type[][][] NetworkModes;
21:26 < nickelpro> SirCmpwn: Ya I'm not thrilled about protocol states
21:26 < M4GNV5> so if bukkit really wont be updated for 1.8 why dont everybody just stay at 1.7.x i mean as SirCmpwn fuck updates ^^ most people like to play on their big servers so they will be forced to play on 1.7 too...
21:26 < dx> M4GNV5 pls
21:26 <+SirCmpwn> I've been playing beta 1.7.3 a lot recently
21:26 < dx> we're talking about real issues here
21:26 < dx> drama time is over
21:26 < nyuszika7h> M4GNV5: Dinnerbone said he will update it to 1.8
21:26 <+SirCmpwn> I'm thinking about forking Craft.Net and just fleshing it out with b1.7.3 support
21:27 < nyuszika7h> (sorry for the highlight DB)
21:27 < M4GNV5> dx: okay sry :D
21:27 < dx> use 'dinnerbro' next time
21:27 <+SirCmpwn> d!nnerbone
21:27 <+SirCmpwn> I personally prefer the nickname "sethblingsbitch"
21:27 < dx> !
21:28 < dx> SirCmpwn: being polite as usual, i see
21:28 < nickelpro> or 'dinner[profanityhere]' depending on how you feel about mojang devs
21:29 <+SirCmpwn> I actually spent some time a couple of weeks ago fixing up seth's website
21:29 <+SirCmpwn> first I had heard from him in over a year
21:29 < dx> hah
21:29 < nickelpro> dx: fixed my utf-8, probably, should have, maybe. Grüm
21:29 < dx> nickelpro: excellent
21:29 < M4GNV5> dx: mine? üäö
21:30 <+SirCmpwn> haha
21:30 < dx> M4GNV5: also good
21:30 <+SirCmpwn> I just realized that I'm a three-star dev because of minecraft 1.7
21:30 < dx> wtf is a "three-star dev"
21:30 < nickelpro> SirCmpwn: You outrank me
21:30  * nickelpro salutes
21:30 <+SirCmpwn> someone with three levels of pointers
21:30 <+SirCmpwn> ***value
21:30 < dx> hah
21:32 < barneygale> If Mojang owns craftbukkit, that means mojang have been releasing the minecraft server source as LGPL for 2 years, right? No legal grey areas
21:32 < barneygale> Sorry if this has already been discussed
21:32 <+SirCmpwn> hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
21:32 <+SirCmpwn> that is an incredibly interesting point
21:32 < nickelpro> Honestly I don't think they thought out the "we own bukkit" statements very far
21:32 < redstonehelper> it means they(whatever that means) have been releasing bukkit as LGPL or whatever license it has for years
21:33 < dx> barneygale: maybe! there's definitely some gray stuff in there
21:33 <+SirCmpwn> redstonehelper: craftbukkit contains decompiled minecraft code
21:33 <+SirCmpwn> and is released under LGPL
21:33 < redstonehelper> I know
21:33 < dx> LGPL or GPL
21:33 < dx> or both
21:33 < dx> or neither
21:33 <+SirCmpwn> and up until now has been legally questionable because of it
21:33 < barneygale> right, because mojang might suddenly pull the plug and say "you've never been authorised to do this"
21:33 <+SirCmpwn> but if mojang owns that code, they have released decompiled minecraft code under LGPL
21:34 <+SirCmpwn> which has a lot of really fun implications :D
21:34 < barneygale> but if they own it, they can't retroactively remove a license they passively OK'd with every release
21:34 < nickelpro> And now everyone can release that code as long as the follow the LGPL
21:34 < barneygale> yes, exactly
21:34 < barneygale> md/5 need not consult his lawyers
21:34 < redstonehelper> it's not like mojang/bukkit have stopped anybody from doing that
21:34 < barneygale> this is a big win for spigot I think
21:34 <+SirCmpwn> has anyone even tried to do that, redstonehelper 
21:34 < dx> barneygale: well no, he still needs to ask a professional about this
21:35 < barneygale> true
21:35 < redstonehelper> SirCmpwn: heh, good point. I don't know.
21:35 < barneygale> I was being a bit hyperbolic but it doesn't come across well in text
21:35 <+SirCmpwn> afaik bukkit and related projects is the only serious one that uses decompiled code
21:35 < nickelpro> barneygale: Do tweets from former Bukkit devs constitute Mojang's true legal stance on the subject?
21:35 < dx> and it's sad that everyone interpreted "consult a lawyer" as "sue mojang" instead of just "ask for advice"
21:35 < barneygale> nickelpro: I thought jeb said as much?
21:35 < redstonehelper> jeb said so on twitter
21:35 < barneygale> or was it only evilseph
21:36 < nickelpro> barneygale: Does jeb have the authority to speak on behalf of Mojang's legal team? (legit question, not sarcastic)
21:36 < redstonehelper> but still, personal opinion/personal account and whatever other legalities they haven't disclosed yet
21:36 <+SirCmpwn> https://tldrlegal.com/license/lisp-lesser-general-public-license