06:40 < Grum> erm forge can *only* work in the new launcher
06:41 < CanVox> Uh
06:41 < CanVox> whhhhaaaaat
06:41 < Grum> unless you are using some really weird ancient version
06:41 < CanVox> nope
06:41 < CanVox> I
06:41 < CanVox> what
06:41 < Grum> the latest forge installs itself as a profile ... as it should do
06:41 < CanVox> That's like
06:41 < CanVox> an option, yeah
06:41 < Grum> clone it, drop your shit in, play
06:41 < CanVox> But it does work on other launchers
06:41 < CanVox> like
06:41 < CanVox> And has for a long while now.
06:42 < CanVox> I mean technic has supported 1.6 since like July?  FTB shortly after us, I think ATLauncher actually was there for a couple months before us.
06:43 < CanVox> And obviously magic launcher's worked forever
06:43 < SinZ> forge still provides universal files, which work on client given the right client setup
06:51 < Grum> the only 'valid' argument is looks and that is just ... stupid
06:51 < CanVox> Why is the ability to have content delivered and installed for you at the push of a button not valid?
06:51 < Drainedsoul> CanVox: You don't have a lot of experience talking to Grum, do you?
06:51 < CanVox> I think this is my first time.
06:52 < Grum> you can already do that CanVox
06:52 < CanVox> Er, from the mojang launcher?
06:53 < Grum> yes
06:53 <+AndrewPH> with no prior setup whatsoever?
06:53 < CanVox> I don't think that that is true.
06:53 < SinZ> I dont see a magic button that says install modpack
06:53 < Grum> 'no prior setup' is a bit silly obviously
06:53 < Grum> and yes you can just do that
06:54 < Grum> will that that button be in the launcher? no, does it have to be? no
06:54 < CanVox> I mean if your plan is to force people into the mojang launcher, making things less convenient fo rthem
06:54 < CanVox> there's not gonna be any less backlash next time than last time
06:54 < SinZ> both technic and ftb have magic install modpack buttons, so the whole "Mojang's launcher will make everything else history", isn't gonna happen
06:54 < Grum> you can do it in two ways; either provide a tool that just sets up the whole gamedir as it should be; start the launcher with arguments for that gamedir
06:54 < Grum> and the tool could be as trivial as just unzipping + running
06:55 < CanVox> Right, but you're just saying we should make things less convenient for our users because...
06:55 < CanVox> Because I guess you're gonna try really hard to make it so we have to.
06:56 < CanVox> I mean our users aren't going to choose to make things harder for themselves.
06:56 < Grum> or do it saner; profile a profile that sets up whatever custom thing you need to do and launch into it
06:56 < nickelpro> So glad I don't have a dog in this fight
06:56 < CanVox> Yeah, or we could just keep doing what we're doing.
06:56 < Grum> CanVox: we'll provide you some incentive soon ;)
06:56 < Grum> might as well start looking into it now :p
06:56 < CanVox> Like what a C&D?
06:56 < CanVox> If we were willing to take cash to inconvenience our users, we'd put the launcher behind an adfly link.
06:57 < Grum> 'soon' we'll simply not let people provide tools that take username+passwords
06:57 < CanVox> "let"
06:57 < umby24> and every damn mod developer puts their shit behind adfly anyway
06:58 <+SpaceManiac> glad I fixed my tool ages ago to use the normal launcher
06:58 < Grum> yeah "every damn mod developer" seems to be moneyhungry
06:58 < umby24> should just redo minecraft in C++ and crush their dreams
06:58 < CanVox> I mean real talk, Grum, are you seriously talking about sending lawyers after people who make launchers?
06:58 < nickelpro> Grum: "not let people provide tools that take username+passwords" That's um, every third party client
06:58 < Grum> then again, same generalisation can be made for 'server owners' :p
06:59 <+SpaceManiac> CanVox: I'm guessing technically "let", as in it won't work if you're not the real launcher
06:59 < Grum> CanVox: you can make a launcher that doesn't login :)
06:59 < umby24> I don't think so :p I don't know of any server owners who hosting to make money
06:59 < umby24> nor am I aware how they would
06:59 < umby24> outside of donations
06:59 <+SpaceManiac> don't make me dig up the screenshot...
06:59 < CanVox> I'm trying to remember the last time an MMO login protocol wasn't immediately deconstructed
06:59 < CanVox> And I'm coming up short
06:59 < Grum> 'donations' hehe
06:59 < CanVox> c'mon son
06:59 <+AndrewPH> umby24: loads of them do, for incentivized 'donations'
06:59 < Eviltechie> Grum: three years ago you commited the gpl to craftbukkit with the message "We're LGPL". was that a typo?
06:59 <+AndrewPH> which technically aren't donations
07:00 < Grum> Eviltechie: no, Mojang just never told us a better license to use
07:00 < umby24> the one that I used to frequent would have incentivized donations, but it funds server costs
07:00 < Grum> the question is still unanswered :)
07:00 <+AndrewPH> some of the largest server networks get thousands per month from 10 year olds who steal their mom's credit cards to buy extra diamond swords
07:00 < Grum> ^^
07:00 < Grum> i think its appaling
07:00 <+AndrewPH> of course those networks also cost thousands
07:00 < Grum> and not quite so legal
07:00 < Grum> doesn't justify it
07:00 <+AndrewPH> but it's still retarded
07:01 < Grum> some are pocketing millions
07:01 < umby24> that's rediculus
07:01 <+AndrewPH> I've always been against incentivizing donations (or making the incentives advantageous - special colors in name or something? sure, that's cool.)
07:01 < Grum> anything that changes gameplay == no-no imho
07:01 <+AndrewPH> also those pay4admin servers, screw 'em
07:02 <+AndrewPH> literally run by people who haven't even gone through puberty yet
07:02 < SinZ> pay4admin servers dont last though, cuz power abuse
07:02 <+AndrewPH> because they paid their way to admin lol
07:02 <+AndrewPH> SinZ: you'd be surprised. if they get big enough they start self-sustaining
07:02 < Grum> CanVox: the thing is, there is absolutely not justification why anything would need to request the username/password of a Minecraft user other than our launcher
07:02 < CanVox> Except to make it more convenient
07:02 < CanVox> for user
07:03 < CanVox> s
07:03 < Grum> to steal their passwords?
07:03 < Grum> agreed
07:03 < CanVox> uh
07:03 < CanVox> no?
07:03 < Grum> yes
07:03 < CanVox> Like
07:03 < CanVox> I can steal a user's password without a working mojang auth protocol
07:03 < Grum> by asking for it
07:03 < CanVox> Yup
07:03 < Grum> which is what you shouldn't be doing :)
07:03 <+AndrewPH> pls giv pasword grum
07:03 < umby24> third party clients, bots would require username/password
07:03 < Grum> AndrewPH: 123passwort
07:03 < CanVox> I mean if you make an answer for that fine
07:04 <+AndrewPH> thx im hak u now, gime monei
07:04 < CanVox> But the idea that you'll say "hey stop using these programs that make your lives easier, everyone
07:04 < CanVox> You know, the ones you've been using for years without incident."
07:04  * Grum sends -$100USD to AndrewPH
07:04 < Grum> CanVox: those are the most risky
07:04 < CanVox> And everyone's going to fall into line with that.
07:04 <+SpaceManiac> I'm sure you can come up with some way to make your launcher delegate to the official one
07:04 < CanVox> Well our code is open source
07:04 < CanVox> and soon it'll be signed too
07:04 < Grum> SpaceManiac: its trivial
07:04 < Grum> CanVox: even worse
07:04 < CanVox> That's always been our position
07:04 < CanVox> And you know
07:04 < CanVox> it's java
07:04 < CanVox> it's pretty dang legible
07:05 < Grum> yes
07:05 < CanVox> So anyone who wants to verify our stuff can
07:05 < Grum> no
07:05 < Grum> haha
07:05 < Grum> that is the thing;  no-one wants to do that
07:05 < Drainedsoul> RMS does
07:05 < Grum> it just has to fuck off ;) (the username/password taking part)
07:05 < Drainedsoul> (what are we even on about, btw?)
07:05 < CanVox> Well I encourage you to find a solution that doesn't hurt your users
07:06 < CanVox> instead of your preferred solution of hurting them
07:06 < Grum> meh i need 5 mins of break; i'm being even more tactical than my normal self =)
07:06 <+SpaceManiac> Drainedsoul: non-Mojang launchers which ask for user/pass
07:06 < Grum> CanVox: stop pretending its hard
07:06 < Drainedsoul> SpaceManiac: What about them?
07:06 < umby24> then what are you going to be implementing? your third party whatever has to open the launcher, launcher verifies and then returns to the third party thing an auth token?
07:06 < Grum> stop pretending out users are precious people that 'can only do it the easiest way'
07:06 < CanVox> It's hard to what?
07:06 <+SpaceManiac> Drainedsoul: whether they should exist
07:06 <+AndrewPH> CanVox: could you not just do everything without worrying about user account details, and then after setting everything up, launch the vanilla launcher?
07:06 < Grum> they have been modding since forever by ripping open the jarfiles manually .... >.>
07:06 < Grum> AndrewPH: and that is one way to do it
07:07 < CanVox> AndrewPH, could mojang not release a headless launcher API instead?
07:07 <+AndrewPH> Grum: most users just followed the (sometimes wrong) guides given by the mod creators lol
07:07 < CanVox> I mean serious talk if this were actually about security, you'd be working with us to find a convenient solution.
07:07 < CanVox> What it's actually about is you want dudes using your launcher cos they're generally not, but you're not willing to put the work in to bring it up to the quality level of a bunch of kids in basements.
07:07 < Drainedsoul> SpaceManiac: So has anything of consequence been discussed?  Did the Yggdrasil call to get a token from a username/password get deactivated or something?
07:08 < CanVox> naw drainedsoul, just
07:08 < CanVox> I guess it will
07:08 < CanVox> "soon"
07:08 < SinZ> but then how will people login for the first time?
07:08 < Olloth> Grum: what did you think I meant when I asked you all those questions about the launcher and told you I was just going to rewrite the whole thing when you wouldn't let me do what I wanted to with it
07:08 < Drainedsoul> That's idiotic.  What about programs that may run when Minecraft isn't even installed.  Do we have to package the jar with them?
07:08 < Olloth> bluffing?
07:08 <+AndrewPH> CanVox: I just gave you a solution that would still have people using your launcher, and the solution was to just set everything up in its own profile and launch the vanilla launcher after installing everything
07:09 < Grum> CanVox: we have no interest in working with anyone to find a 'solution' for something that is solved
07:09 < CanVox> AndrewPH: I don't understand why there has to be extra steps tacked onto the end.
07:09 < CanVox> Grum: It is solved.
07:09 < Drainedsoul> CanVox: Because Mojang
07:09 < Grum> CanVox: the only argument against the current launcher is the looks; and its ... a valid but rather weak one
07:09 < SinZ> AndrewPH: and tell the audience of loud idiots that we have to make it more inconvenient to use, cuz mojang
07:09 <+AndrewPH> CanVox: to prevent third parties from gaining enough trust to be taking usernames and passwords
07:09 < CanVox> AndrewPH: So have the game client take credentials.
07:09 < CanVox> Done deal
07:09 <+AndrewPH> CanVox: okay, that's what I suggested, but replace client with launcher
07:10 < Grum> CanVox: it does? O.o
07:10 < Grum> the tokens obviously
07:10 < CanVox> Grum: I mean from the user.
07:10 < Drainedsoul> What about tools that may run in an environment w/o Java and w/o Minecraft installed?
07:10 < Grum> CanVox: no that is stupid to do
07:10 < CanVox> Like there is a way of solving your security issue without taking extra steps.  You're not interested in seeking it out, because this isn't about security.
07:10 < Grum> Drainedsoul: if you are not starting java you have no business taking username/password of people
07:10 < CanVox> And as I was saying, if you guys were capable of entering into an arms race with the entire community and winning, your launcher would be good enough that other ones wouldn't exist.
07:11 < CanVox> You aren't, it's not, this isn't going to work out for you.
07:11 <+AndrewPH> CanVox: you're acting like doing what you normally do and then launching the launcher instead of the client is a bad thing
07:11 < Grum> CanVox: no, you are thinking that I have any interest in somehow becoming dependant on external projects -- which is laughable :)
07:11 <+AndrewPH> it's literally the same thing except letting the launcher worry about authentication
07:11 < CanVox> legacylauncher....
07:11 < Olloth> ^lol
07:11 < Drainedsoul> Grum: How do you figure?
07:11 < CanVox> It's not like disastrous, but but it's a bunch of button clicks and waiting that I'd rather not foist on my users if I have the option.
07:11 < CanVox> And I do.
07:12 < Grum> for now :)
07:12 <+SpaceManiac> mcregion
07:12 < CanVox> I pretty much always will.
07:12 < Grum> not really :)
07:12 < Olloth> yggdrasil 2:
07:12 < CanVox> You will be the first company in all of history to develop an auth protocol that can't be reverse engineered.
07:12 < Olloth> now with slightly longer reverse engineering process
07:12 < Grum> CanVox: oh its not about that
07:12 < CanVox> Congratulations, I think you have a job waiting for you in the US government
07:13 < Olloth> lol
07:13 < CanVox> It's either that or lawyers
07:13 < Grum> good guess >:)
07:13 < CanVox> I can't imagine any other solution.
07:13 < CanVox> Good luck with that.
07:13 <+SpaceManiac> clearly Mojang plans to employ nukes
07:13 < Grum> not sure if we will tbh
07:13 < Grum> i just know the change is coming that will 'ever so gently' demand not to have username/passwords in thirdparty things
07:13 < CanVox> I'm sure Curse will just lie down for that one
07:14 <+AndrewPH> CanVox: it wouldn't be a bunch of extra clicks, it would be one extra click
07:14 < dx> nukes confirmed for minecraft 1.8
07:14 <+AndrewPH> to press 'login' on the normal launcher
07:14 <+SpaceManiac> what does Curse do?
07:14 < SinZ> Grum: just saying, attempting to shut down FTB/Technic by making it more inconvenient wont work, you need to provide a better service to do that
07:14 < CanVox> Or I could just not make my users do that
07:14 < CanVox> spacemaniac: curse owns the FTB launcher
07:14 < Grum> SinZ: wrong, we don't have to do anything
07:14 < Grum> not more than that has already been done
07:14 <+AndrewPH> CanVox: or you could stop being retarded and do things in a way that won't cause users to trust every single third party program with their mojang credentials
07:14 < Grum> well and some polish on the launcher =)
07:14 < CanVox> Sinz: They just gonna sue us apparently
07:15 < Grum> CanVox: no, i am saying that in the end that will be our only 'hammer'
07:15 < Drainedsoul> AndrewPH: Did I miss the moment when Mojang credentials became sacrosanct?
07:15 < SinZ> and telling the Technic team to proxy through your launcher isn't viable, as it will either slow everything down, or become less user friendly
07:15 < CanVox> grum: well then it's that or nothing dude
07:15 <+SpaceManiac> well looking forward to the launcher improvements at least
07:15 < SinZ> which is the reason technic/ftb exists in the frist place, to be more user friendly
07:15 <+AndrewPH> Drainedsoul: they do contain games that cost money
07:15 < Grum> SinZ: the launcher is that slow? its ugly but thats about it :)
07:16 < Drainedsoul> And how are you supposed to authenticate users from non-Java programs?
07:16 < Grum> no the reason it exists is because modders were fucking lazy for the longest time and only made modding work through horrible horrible hacks
07:16 < CanVox> Grum: Like seriously, mojang has been gently suggesting people don't do things from create texture packs to create launchers
07:16 < Grum> Drainedsoul: why would you need to do that? seriously :)
07:16 < umby24> Grum: It's java, it's going to be slow. Minecraft itself is slow.
07:16 < Grum> CanVox: how did we ever say dont create texturepacks?
07:16 < Grum> beyond breaking texturepacks completely and adding resourcepacks :)
07:16 < nickelpro> Grum: I have a bot written in Python, clearly it requires username/pass to work. You can't sue me, it's just a protocol implementation, no copied code. The fuck you going to throw at us?
07:16 < Grum> umby24: lol
07:16 < SinZ> Grum: FTB and Technic dont exist just to have a pre-configured environment for mods, it is to have pre-configured modpacks sent to clients in a convenient way
07:16 < CanVox> Notch did "kindly request" people not break open the jar when minecraft was first released grum
07:17 < CanVox> Like
07:17 < Grum> nickelpro: keep it to yourself -- i dont see the problem :)
07:17 < CanVox> Seriously
07:17 < nickelpro> Grum: It's on Github, MIT licensed, anyone can use it
07:17 < Drainedsoul> Grum: Remote server console that piggybacks on Mojang authentication and isn't written in Java.  That's just one use case.
07:17 < Olloth> Grum: do you know reverse engineering laws?
07:17 < Grum> SinZ: so you are saying that you *need* to take the users username/password in order to copy files on disk? hilarious :)
07:17 < nickelpro> I don't force them to, but what you're saying is idiotic regardless
07:17 < Olloth> you probably should stop trying to speak for your lawyers
07:17 < CanVox> Olloth: Nobody at mojang knows any laws, have you seen their eula?
07:17 < Olloth> rofl
07:17 < Grum> Olloth: you can just look at the source :P
07:18 < CanVox> Olloth: They have a eula that makes it illegal to host servers for money
07:18 < Grum> it does?
07:18 < CanVox> Uh yup
07:18 < CanVox> Says you can't make money off minecraft, perido
07:18 < CanVox> NO exceptions for hosting or anything
07:18 < Grum> not that i know of; maybe you can not read legalese :)
07:18 < CanVox> Uh yeah it does
07:18 < CanVox> Like
07:18 < Olloth> no see canvox
07:18 < CanVox> It's pretty straightforward on the issue of profiting off minecraft
07:18 < Olloth> in the legal world
07:18 < Olloth> you have to read between the lines
07:18 < Olloth> things aren't just spelled out clearly
07:18 < Olloth> - mojang
07:18 <+SpaceManiac> That's pretty silly, since essentially everybody makes money off Minecraft
07:18 < Grum> have you ever considered its not the problem that our lawyers don't know how to write legalese, but that users cannot *read* it ... BECAUSE they are not lawyers? :)
07:19 < SinZ> Grum: it is faster to ask for user/pass directly then download stuff, then pipe through the Mojang launcher to confirm that they are "legit", and have Mojang launcher open technic/ftb to start the modpack download
07:19 < Grum> SinZ: but why would you need user/pass from the users before you download stuff
07:19 < Grum> that is just bullshit
07:19 <+AndrewPH> to prevent unneccesary server load, but that's it I think
07:19 < Grum> SpaceManiac: yes and many do it in ways that are not so condoned/wanted
07:19 < CanVox> lol
07:19 < SinZ> cuz piracy is a thing apparently
07:20 < CanVox> Why are you guys against handing out your bandwidth to cracked launchers?
07:20 < CanVox> I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND
07:20 <+SpaceManiac> true true
07:20 < Grum> CanVox: why are you guys not against password stealing from cracked launchers?
07:20 <+SpaceManiac> Unless that was sarcasm, I think that sentence speaks for itself
07:20 < nickelpro> "make commercial use of anything we‘ve made;
07:20 < nickelpro> try to make money from anything we‘ve made;"
07:20 < nickelpro> https://account.mojang.com/documents/minecraft_eula
07:20 < CanVox> CanVox: How the fuck would a cracked launcher take someone's password?
07:20 < SinZ> Grum: because neither FTB nor Technic actually steal passwords
07:20 < CanVox> The whole point of a ccracked launcher is you don't put any credentials in
07:20 < CanVox> Because you can play minecraft without an account
07:21 < Grum> CanVox: by still asking for them and then selling the accounts >.>
07:21 < Grum> which is what is happening at large scale every day
07:21 < dx> never considered it from that side
07:21 < CanVox> WHY WOULD SOMEONE WITH AN ACCOUTN USE A CRACKED LAUNCHER
07:21 < dx> errrr
07:21 < dx> wrong channel
07:21 < Grum> CanVox: because people are stupid
07:21 < _123DMWM> Humanity as a whole is pretty stupid
07:21 < Grum> NOW PLAY ON TIS SERVER WITH THIS AWESOME LUNCHER
07:21 < CanVox> I don't think you knew what a cracked launcher was 30 seconds ago and I think know you're trying to cover for it
07:21 < Grum> awww password stolen .. dammit
07:21 < Drainedsoul> If people are downloading and using disreputable software, no one -- Mojang or otherwise -- can protect them.  I don't see how Grum or anyone else thinks they can.
07:22 < Grum> i don't consider something playing the game without auth 'cracked'
07:22 < edk> quite a lot of people use griefing clients and so forth with custom launchers
07:22 < Grum> you can even trivially do that with our launcher >.>
07:22 < Olloth> I can just distribute a mojang launcher that steals passwords
07:22 <+AndrewPH> Grum: "welp my account's stolen better chargeback because I'm a retard"
07:22 < umby24> Grum: That will happen with or without the use of your authentication system
07:22 < nickelpro> Grum: Didn't you just say: "stop pretending out users are precious people that 'can only do it the easiest way' " now you're saying they're stupid and easily get passes stolen?
07:22 < Grum> we do not impose particularly strong DRM orso :p
07:23 < Olloth> nothing about possibly disabling the technic launcher stops that
07:23 < umby24> Take away the ability to give credentials through a third party launcher, they'll just launch it without a valid account, and send off the credentials
07:23 < umby24> no need to step through your authentication at all
07:23 < Grum> nickelpro: that is saying the same twice
07:23 < Olloth> 10:23 PM <umby24> Take away the ability to give credentials through a third party launcher, they'll just launch it without a valid account, and send off the credentials
07:23 < Olloth> or they'll just distribute a modded mojang one
07:23 < Grum> but we can easily change ours
07:23 < Olloth> they are already doing something illegal I don't think they care about copyright
07:23 < Grum> yup
07:24 < Grum> and we can nail those down legally if they 'become to known/big'
07:24 <+AndrewPH> tldr: monthly #mcdevs dick-wagging competition 
07:24 <+SpaceManiac> glad I tend to stay away from the client side of things...
07:24 < nickelpro> This conversation is idiotic, unless Mojang is going to start legally trolling projects all of this is irrelevant
07:24 < Grum> SpaceManiac: it's significantly more fickle than the server-side :)
07:24 < _123DMWM> Thanks AndrewPH
07:24 < _123DMWM> I was just about to read it actually
07:24 < CanVox> nickelpro: Well they are!  Welll maybe not... but they could.  And they will.  Well.  Maybe.
07:24 < Olloth> Grum: but for real, I did tell you when I was rebuilding the technic launcher
07:24 < Grum> nickelpro: if projects refuse to grow up -- that is about the only thing left to do eventually
07:24 < edk> is there a reason minecraft can't have authentication of the you-log-in-at-mojang.com-and-mojang.com-gives-the-third-party-a-key variety?
07:25 < Grum> edk: yes, we don't care to have that
07:25 < nickelpro> Grum: You have no legs to stand on legally, open source non derivative code is perfectly legal
07:25 < SinZ> edk: because that requires Mojang to admit that third party launchers have a purpose
07:25 < dx> i didn't read half of the conversation, has anyone tried to suggest implementing alternate auth methods? like something inspired by oauth1, for example.
07:25 < Olloth> why does it
07:25 < Grum> nickelpro: i have no idea how the lawyers are going to phrase it :D
07:25 < Olloth> add an extra step
07:25 < Olloth> to your users
07:25 < Olloth> is that annoying or something?
07:25 < edk> Grum: why not? there are other use cases for that beside custom launchers
07:25 < CanVox> edk: There's literally a million ways third party launchers could verify you own minecraft and work with mojang to provide a smooth experience while remaining secure.
07:25 < Grum> stop pretending that 'all our users' use a custom launcher :)
07:26 < Grum> edk: not a single one
07:26 < CanVox> edk: The reason why mojang isn't doing that is because this isn't about security.
07:26 < nickelpro> Grum: Which is why you should stop talking like you represent your lawyers
07:26 < CanVox> edk: Security is an excuse.
07:26 < Grum> CanVox: 'remaining secure' ... lol :P
07:26 < nickelpro> Perhaps you should speak to them first
07:26 < Grum> CanVox: has nothing to do with security, its very simple; are you Mojang? NO? Do not ask for username/password of our users
07:26 < edk> Grum: sure there is. i can think of several websites that would use mojang auth if you had openid or oauth or so
07:26 < Grum> i mean, is that really THAT hard? :)
07:26 < CanVox> Grum: Apparently literally hundreds of other game developers don't have third party tools that verify users, I just dreamt all that
07:26 < Olloth> Yes
07:26 < edk> Grum: but you don't, so they use retarded authentication servers instead
07:26 < Grum> are you going to ask for someones google-account username/password from your launcher too? because 'it makes the experience smoother' ? o.O
07:27 < Olloth> here let me pull out
07:27 < Olloth> my phone app
07:27 < CanVox> Grum: Uh, yeah?
07:27 < Olloth> that asks me to log in my bank
07:27 < edk> Grum: no, because google has fucking oauth
07:27 < _123DMWM> Force google+ onto the peasants
07:27 < CanVox> Grum: GOogle literally has an API for that
07:27 < Olloth> oh according to mojang that's illegal
07:27 < Grum> _123DMWM: haha should do that :)
07:27 < Olloth> nevermind that app doesn't exist
07:27 < CanVox> Grum: Why did you choose google as your example, that was dumb.
07:27 < Grum> ah, so where do you fill in your 'google account details' then?
07:28 < Grum> in a random app or do you get dropped at google to do it?
07:28 < nickelpro> So Mojang Oauth then? Problem solved
07:28 < Grum> no fuck Oauth
07:28 < dx> instead of laughing at sites that "ask for a google account", you could use that same authentication method for minecraft accounts and solve the goddamn issue
07:28 < nickelpro> So Mojang Oauth2 then? Problem solved
07:28 < CanVox> https://developers.google.com/accounts/docs/OAuth2
07:28 < dx> ...ok then
07:28 < CanVox> Right
07:28 < CanVox> like
07:28 < edk> fuck oauth because?
07:28 < Grum> oauth is a piece of shit
07:28 < CanVox> What have I been talking about dude
07:28 < CanVox> Oh ok
07:28 < CanVox> word
07:28 < CanVox> thanks for clearing that up
07:28 <+AndrewPH> Grum: did you just say google's doing it right after saying you don't want any kind of oauth after saying you don't want people asking for passwords wot
07:28 < nickelpro> Twitter/Facebook/Google haven't a clue what they're doing apparently
07:28 < CanVox> NOT COMPARED TO MOJANG
07:28 < Grum> i never said google is doing anything right? O.o
07:28 < nickelpro> lol
07:29 <+AndrewPH> <Grum> ah, so where do you fill in your 'google account details' then?
07:29 <+AndrewPH> <Grum> in a random app or do you get dropped at google to do it?
07:29 <+AndrewPH> implying it's doing it right
07:29 <+AndrewPH> don't mince words nob
07:29 < Olloth> rofl
07:29 < CanVox> AndrewPH: What have I been asking for?
07:29 < CanVox> Don't mince words
07:29 < CanVox> A way of verifying users from my own software
07:29 < Grum> you are mincing my words, the thing is, the application is not asking for the password; the application drops the users off in a browser on googles site
07:29 <+AndrewPH> CanVox: I'm on both sides of the argument and both sides have their flaws
07:29 < Grum> which is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT
07:29 < CanVox> Grum says NO IT CAN'T BE SECURE
07:29 < Olloth> CanVox: Thins are in motion ;)
07:29 < Olloth> :)
07:29 < Olloth> ;)
07:29 <+AndrewPH> including "we should be able to ask for passwords because!" and "we shouldn't have oauth because!"
07:29 < edk> Grum: yeah, that's oauth doing that
07:30 < CanVox> AndrewPH: I haven't demanded that I be able to ask for passwords
07:30 < Grum> have you *ever* even looked at oauth between 'standalone' java and anything else?
07:30 < Grum> seriously that is the *WORST* hackery ever
07:30 < CanVox> I have demanded we be able to launch people in just as many steps as we do now
07:30 < Grum> CanVox: and your demands fall on flat ears
07:30 <+SpaceManiac> I can't imagine oauth without a browser involved is pleasant
07:30 <+AndrewPH> CanVox: well, you could do it in less steps just doing what you normally do and then passing it on to the normal launcher to authenticate and launch the game
07:30 < CanVox> I even said, repeatedly, AndrewPH, that mojang should seek a secure solution that allows everyone to keep doing what their doing
07:30 < Grum> lol how do do you even figure you get to make ANY demands :P
07:30 < CanVox> AndrewPH: That's more steps
07:31 <+AndrewPH> secure solution: launch launcher
07:31 < CanVox> Grum: Because you can't stop me from doing what I"m doing now?
07:31 <+AndrewPH> it's one more step stop being so gosh darned foreign
07:31 < CanVox> So if you want to, you have to work with me?
07:31 < umby24> Grum: Then move the launcher to a different language. Will allow your oauth to be less hackery, and won't disrupt your java main client.
07:31 < Grum> CanVox: 'more steps' ... sigh
07:31 < CanVox> AndrewPH: Stop misrepresenting my opinion, though
07:31 < Grum> no, oauth by default is a hacky piece of shit
07:31 <+AndrewPH> CanVox: I'm not representing you, goml
07:31 < CanVox> CanVox: You specifically said my positionw as that I should be able to take users' passwords
07:31 < CanVox> er
07:31 < Grum> 'interfacing' with a browser through 'custom local ports' is just ... bad ... VERY bad.
07:31 < CanVox> AndrewPH
07:31 < dx> Grum: oauth just for third parties?
07:31 < CanVox> That is a misrepresentation
07:31 <+AndrewPH> CanVox: No, I didn't.
07:32 < Grum> dx: would be rather waste of time to build right? especially since we do not need it
07:32 < CanVox> 00:29:48 <•AndrewPH> including "we should be able to ask for passwords because!" and "we shouldn't have oauth because!"
07:32 < Olloth> AndrewPH: to clarify, because I have known grum a long time
07:32 < Grum> let alone having to actually also maintain it
07:32 <+AndrewPH> I never once said, "You said you should be able to take passwords"
07:32 < CanVox> That is exactly what you did
07:32 < Olloth> if there is any architectural flaws at all with something
07:32 < CanVox> AndrewPH you did it right htere
07:32 < CanVox> where I quoted you
07:32 <+AndrewPH> I never once attributed that to you, CanVox 
07:32 < Olloth> he hates it, it's terrible
07:32 < Olloth> and he will never use it
07:32 < Olloth> and I'm only exaggerating a little
07:32 < Olloth> he has quite extreme standards
07:32 < Grum> yes for sanity
07:32 < edk> yet: minecraft
07:32 < CanVox> AndrewPH: If you don't have anything to say that you're not going to immediately bullshit and backpedal about, don't say anything.
07:32 < Grum> which is getting saner edk
07:33 < Drainedsoul> who has extreme standards?
07:33 < Olloth> grum
07:33 < edk> yes, and i applaud your efforts
07:33 < Drainedsoul> wait
07:33 < edk> but i don't think oauth would make it less ane
07:33 < edk> er, sane
07:33 < Drainedsoul> we're supposed to believe grum has extreme standards, but he works on MINECRAFT and hasn't committed suicide?
07:33 <+AndrewPH> CanVox: Okay, point me to where I literally said "CanVox's opinion is that he can and should be able to take passwords"
07:33 < Grum> have you looked at how the implementation will look like edk? its atricoous
07:33 < CanVox> You said the two sides both have flaws.  One side says we shoudl be able to take passwords, the ohter says no oauth ever
07:33 < Grum> seriously from java oauth is ... pathetic
07:33 < CanVox> Apparently I'm not on my own side?
07:33 < Grum> it works VERY well in the browser
07:33 < Grum> it works really shit anywhere else
07:34 < CanVox> AndrewPH: Who were you referring to then?
07:34 < Grum> now add java, which has even less control because its sitting in a nice VM and you are talking truly pathetic
07:34 < CanVox> AndrewPH: If not me?
07:34 < edk> i was under the impression there were a few java implementations around, but i haven't looked at them
07:34 < Olloth> Drainedsoul: I know
07:34 < Olloth> Drainedsoul: I think he looks at it as the biggest challenge he could ever face
07:34 < Grum> edk: i looked at them, it adds another handful of potential single points of failure
07:34 < edk> Grum: in that case, what about openid? would let you use it for single sign-on for websites if nothing else
07:34 < Olloth> how to turn minecraft into a 100% utopia perfect piece of code
07:34 <+AndrewPH> CanVox: paraphrasing and being non-specific go a long way
07:35 < nickelpro> My opinion is basically that I can and should be able to use username/pass as an authentication method in my client, especially if Mojang refuses to provide any alternative
07:35 < dx> Grum: oauth1 is the good version of the standard, anyway. ignore the fact that it requires a browser, the third parties would have to deal with that
07:35 < edk> you know, like mcbouncer.com and such which enforce username==minecraft name, they have to use a stupid auth server now
07:35 < Grum> Drainedsoul: just know that i've said that minecraft eventually will have 90% testcoverage as a minimum :p
07:35 <+AndrewPH> CanVox: although you have implied that you should be able to take passwords if mojang won't implement any sort of oauth
07:35 < Grum> and it'll be hilarious if we ever get to that point
07:35 < CanVox> AndrewPH: Oh, sorry, now I am saying people should be able to take passwords?
07:35 < CanVox> Seriously, get the fuck out of here, you snake.
07:35 < Grum> because we'd probably be the only game in existence that can claim that
07:35 <+AndrewPH> CanVox: you have implied.
07:36 < Grum> CanVox: you are saying that
07:36 < CanVox> Grum: NO I HAVE NOT
07:36 < Olloth> Grum: laugh and the world laughs with you
07:36 < Grum> not literally, but you are arguing that you NEED TO HAVE A WAY TO TAKE THE USERS AUTH DETAILS
07:36 < CanVox> I said that if you don't put together a replacement system I will continue to do so.
07:36 < Drainedsoul> AndrewPH: it's not about whether people should be able to or shouldn't be able to take passwords
07:36 < edk> why are you two arguing about what you have or haven't said?
07:36 < nickelpro> I am saying that, CanVox has been saying that he just wants to auth users
07:36 < CanVox> I would much rather! do what you want
07:36 < Drainedsoul> AndrewPH: They just will, you can't change that.
07:36 < CanVox> stop taking passwords
07:36 < CanVox> stop taking credentials
07:36 < CanVox> Let's work together, come up with a secure system
07:36 < CanVox> But we both know that this shit ain't about security
07:36 < CanVox> So you're not gonna do that
07:36 <+AndrewPH> Drainedsoul: it's not but he is implying that he should be able to if he can't authenticate other ways
07:36 <+AndrewPH> when you really don't need to fucking authenticate at all
07:36 < CanVox> And you can't win an arms race with us
07:36 < Grum> nickelpro: i do not see a reason for anything beyond our launcher to need to take credentials of users
07:36 < CanVox> So send us a C&D or get fucked
07:37 < Grum> CanVox: so that is your stance? :)
07:37 < edk> if CanVox is annoying the living shit out of anyone else with their enter key, http://wouter.coekaerts.be/irssi/compact
07:37 < nickelpro> Grum: Can't write a Python bot that auths without credentials
07:37 < dx> also, correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the server side developer danfrisk? so implementing oauth wouldn't be a waste of minecraft development time, he doesn't work in minecraft itself
07:37 < Grum> nickelpro: you can?
07:37 < Grum> dx: wrong
07:37 < nickelpro> Grum: How would you auth without credentials?
07:37 < dx> Grum: correct me
07:37 < CanVox> Grum: Uh, yeah, I'd love implement a secure system 
07:37 < Grum> nickelpro: we dont want to do oauth :P
07:38 < Olloth> dx: it's wrong because there are conceivably other things he could be doing
07:38 < Grum> CanVox: there is none, any system where your app makes a box to take user/pass .. ITS WRONG
07:38 < Olloth> that are more important
07:38 < CanVox> Grum: It is possible to put together a secure system where we don't
07:38 < edk> Grum: can I get an answer about openid? I don't mind if it's no, I just want closure!
07:38 < edk> <3
07:38 <+AndrewPH> Grum: maybe do what google does when it's a standalone program - allow users to generate passwords that don't provide full account access
07:38 < Grum> edk: how would 'openid' communicate back to the running java process?
07:38 < nickelpro> Grum: Ya, so, again, how would you auth Minecraft without credentials? I need to take credentials, there isn't another way
07:38 < dx> edk: openid doesn't do authentication, it uses oauth for that
07:38 <+AndrewPH> so it would be LIKE asking for credentials, but much safer
07:38 < SinZ> edk: it isn't the notchian solution, so no
07:38 < edk> Grum: I meant for letting external sites authenticate you, not for logging you in
07:38 < Olloth> nickelpro: WON'T FIX
07:38 < Grum> nickelpro: why would you have to auth minecraft? :)
07:39 < Olloth> Proxy service or a bot
07:39 < Drainedsoul> Grum: To log into MInecraft servers?
07:39 < Olloth> things like that he already said
07:39 < nickelpro> Grum: So my bot can log into servers
07:39 < Grum> edk: i think that is something that is being looked into, for skin shit
07:39 < edk> Grum: it would give the third party a guarantee that you're Grum, not a login token for Grum
07:39 < edk> ah awesome
07:39 < dx> i'll go do something more productive, see you guys later
07:39 <+AndrewPH> Grum: my previous suggestion might work as a nice alternative to a bunch of nerds crying about c&ds
07:39 <+AndrewPH> it's not oauth so there's that for you
07:39 < Grum> i prefer people crying
07:39 < CanVox> Grum: Ever heard of laches?
07:40 < Grum> CanVox: you are about to explain
07:40 < Drainedsoul> I don't understand why people are crying.  If the vanilla launcher can authenticate, there's a way to authenticate, it just has to be reverse engineered.
07:40 < CanVox> You should look it up dogg.
07:40 < Grum> i dont understand why people keep defending: "NO WE NEED A USERNAME/PASSWORD INPUT BOX"
07:40 < CanVox> Nobody's saying that
07:40 < CanVox> So y
07:40 <+AndrewPH> Drainedsoul: or third party launchers could not worry about it and just delegate authentication to the real launcher, which is /1/ extra click. it's not really a huge deal.
07:40 < Grum> you did :)
07:40 < CanVox> maybe you're in another channel?
07:40 < nickelpro> Drainedsoul: Grum has been threatening that Mojang will take legal action against non-mojang authentication
07:41 < Grum> nickelpro: err i have not? O.o
07:41 <+AndrewPH> nickelpro: I don't think he's literally said it, but he's definitely implied it!
07:41 < CanVox> Grum: Yeah you did
07:41 <+AndrewPH> hoho, words.
07:41 < Drainedsoul> AndrewPH: Yes but it's not all about 3rd party launchers.
07:41 < sct> I am pretty sure CanVox said hes willing to work with another system that lets him auth accounts. He never said it had to be taking the users credentials.
07:41 < SinZ> Grum: There needs to be a solution to authenticate without the "OUR LAUNCHER OR GTFO" argument
07:41 < Grum> i said that the change was 'in the air' and that there is little we can do to enforce it without involving lawyers
07:41 < nickelpro> AndrewPH: No, he said it, I'll go dig up the log
07:41 < Grum> SinZ: no, actually, there doesn't have to be
07:41 <+AndrewPH> nickelpro: I must have glazed over it with all this noise
07:41 < CanVox> Man, dishonest people are my least favorite type of people
07:41 <+AndrewPH> Drainedsoul: it's not! which is why being able to generate passwords for an account that don't give full access would be a good idea
07:41 < Drainedsoul> AndrewPH: For example I'm writing a command line utility that needs to auth, perhaps even on a headless system, how can I go through the launcher, forget the fact that the program is not Java.
07:42 < nickelpro> refering to legal action: <Grum> nickelpro: if projects refuse to grow up -- that is about the only thing left to do eventually
07:42 < sct> But you are saying they are still in the favorite category
07:42 < Grum> yes; and that is exactly what i just said; 
07:42 <+AndrewPH> nickelpro: he didn't /literally/ say it there, but he heavily implied it.
07:42 < Grum> i said that the change was 'in the air' and that there is little we can do to enforce it without involving lawyers <--
07:42 < CanVox> AndrewPH: Basically he's too pussy to threaten us
07:42 < CanVox> But he still wants to threaten us
07:42 < Grum> that is EXACTLY what i said
07:42 < Grum> no, i am giving you a heads up
07:42 < CanVox> A head up of what
07:42 < Olloth> nickelpro: don't worry, your use case is valid
07:42 <+AndrewPH> CanVox: I'm sure that's the problem - oh wait but he got insulted for talking for his lawyers?
07:42 < Grum> look into ways to not depend on taking username/passwords of users
07:42 < Olloth> that's why he just keeps ignoring and reasking the same question WHAT USE CASE??
07:42 <+AndrewPH> I'm seeing some sillyness here.
07:42 < CanVox> Like a heads up that I will sue you if you do a thing
07:42 < nickelpro> I'm not sure how "the only thing left to do eventually" is ambiguous but alright
07:42 < CanVox> Is also known as a legal threat
07:43 < Grum> its not?
07:43 < CanVox> In common parlance
07:43 < CanVox> Yes it is
07:43 < CanVox> haha
07:43 < CanVox> what?
07:43 < CanVox> Also I'm pretty sure mojang's lawyers wont' due shit
07:43 < Grum> its a dev-to-dev you might save yourself some hassle if you already look into it now
07:43 < CanVox> Are your lawyers any good grum?
07:43 < CanVox> I would rather see the hassle of Mojang suing 3 guys in a basement
07:43 < CanVox> That would be
07:43 < CanVox> incredible
07:43 <+AndrewPH> nickelpro: when I say literally, I mean literally. He did not say "We will sue you", he implied it.
07:44 < Grum> Olloth: there is no valid usecase for taking auth details *at all* except for our launcher
07:44 < Olloth> so no bots
07:44 < Olloth> no proxys
07:44 < nickelpro> ^
07:44 < Olloth> just to clarify
07:44 < Olloth> you think they shouldn't exist
07:44 < Drainedsoul> What would the grounds for that hypothetical suit even be?
07:44 < Olloth> because you won't say anything in response
07:44 < Grum> no idea
07:44 < Olloth> except
07:44 < nickelpro> Drainedsoul: <Grum> nickelpro: i have no idea how the lawyers are going to phrase it :D
07:44 < Olloth> "There is no other use case"
07:44 < CanVox> AndrewPH: What the fuck exactly do you think words are for?
07:44 < umby24> Drainedsoul: Violations of the terms of use for mojang authentication services?
07:44 <+AndrewPH> CanVox: shut up you ooze stupidity.
07:45 < CanVox> AndrewPH: Exactly what is the difference between implying and saying something except for legal actionability?
07:45 <+AndrewPH> I'm not denying that he probably meant "We will sue you", I'm saying he didn't directly say it
07:45 <+AndrewPH> so fuck off
07:45 < Grum> Olloth: there simply is none that requires you to make a program and distribute this to users and demand their username/password
07:45 < Drainedsoul> "require" is an interesting word choice in this context
07:45 < Drainedsoul> I mean nothing requires anyone to make anything 3rd party for Minecraft
07:45 < Olloth> yes I am indeed not required
07:45 < Olloth> to do anything
07:45 < nickelpro> Grum: What program demands username/password? If you want to log into authenticating servers it is requires
07:45 < Olloth> good call on that one
07:46 < Grum> nickelpro: why would you want that? there is no usecase
07:46 < Olloth> Drainedsoul: he'd prefer it that way
07:46 <+AndrewPH> Grum: for the third or fourth time, copy google's approach for desktop applications
07:46 < nickelpro> Grum: again, bots and proxies
07:46 < Olloth> third party = unpure
07:46 <+AndrewPH> it's simple and it works and everybody's happy
07:46 < Grum> AndrewPH: why would we spend time implementing somthing that isn't needed? :)
07:46 <+AndrewPH> Grum: so that the crying calms down
07:46 < nickelpro> Grum: https://github.com/nickelpro/spock
07:46 < Grum> but that implies i care for that AndrewPH
07:46 < umby24> Grum: So in other words, if I made a 3rd party command line chat client on a javaless system, you're saying get bent, you REQUIRE our launcher?
07:46 < Olloth> Grum: why have you done it dozens of the times in the past?
07:46 < umby24> Period, end of story
07:46 <+AndrewPH> Grum: but that implies implications that imply things!
07:46  * AndrewPH cries
07:46 < Olloth> different people think they need different things
07:47 < Grum> yeah
07:47 < Grum> and the fun part is, from my pov (working for mojang) -- Mojang needs absolutely nothing of those things
07:47 < Grum> there is no justification to spend time on it at all .. let alone maintain it
07:47 < umby24> sure, Mojang doesn't need it because it doesn't make you money
07:48 < nickelpro> Grum: Of course not, but that's not a reason to persecute other use cases
07:48 < Olloth> so users and customers aren't part of the equation
07:48 < CanVox> Well it's good to hear you have your most imporant constituency at heart.
07:48 < Grum> umby24: we really do very little to make money ... O.o
07:48 < CanVox> Yourselves.
07:48 < Olloth> oh sorry let me see
07:48 < Olloth> "You guys don't matter you are a drop in the bucket"
07:48 < CanVox> When you come to sue us they should let you write the press release.
07:48 < Olloth> that's a fuckin horrible excuse
07:48 < umby24> however, if a user wants this use case, that's not helping you usage wise
07:48 < Grum> CanVox: nah that would be a bad idea =)
07:49 < nickelpro> I don't see where, "we don't care about you" becomes "we're going to actively work against you"
07:49 < Grum> Olloth: wait; so if every person that has bought minecraft DEMANDED we have to make a mail-service .. we should jsut do it? O.o
07:49 < Grum> i mean, that is just .... stupid :P
07:49 < CanVox> I'm increasingly certain that Mojang isn't gonna do anything, Grum's just throwing a tantrum because he can't do anything about us. :\
07:49 < Olloth> no
07:49 < Olloth> I didn't say that
07:49 < CanVox> It's funny that Grum says mojang doesn't do much to make money, because we made a lot to make mojang money today.
07:49 < CanVox> Using uh
07:49 < CanVox> credentials
07:49 < CanVox> from our launcher
07:49 < nickelpro> CanVox: I have no doubt nothing will come of this, but it's interesting from a principle PoV
07:49 < CanVox> It is
07:49 < Drainedsoul> I don't really understand why Grum/Mojang is against people using their authentication, I mean using their authentication ensures people have bought the game, right?
07:49 < CanVox> but grum always does this
07:49 < Grum> CanVox: you didn't? 
07:49 < CanVox> he siad the same stuff last year
07:50 < Drainedsoul> so 3rd party using Mojang authentication is us making sure people have bought the game, for them.
07:50 < CanVox> but he said it to an audience of people he considers his peers
07:50 <+AndrewPH> CanVox: he's not really throwing a tantrum, he's just sort of responding to all of us
07:50 < CanVox> So he had to backpedal
07:50 < Grum> CanVox: got numbers to back it up?
07:50 < CanVox> Grum: I asked marc to track sales over the next week
07:50 < Olloth> Grum: just to clarify you don't think technic or FTB have any effect on sales?
07:50 < CanVox> I assume he's not going to do it
07:50 < CanVox> because I'm me
07:50 < Grum> CanVox: he can't
07:50 < CanVox> Ah
07:50 < CanVox> Well then I suppose I don't but you do
07:50 < Grum> i can ask for it -- but this would prove what?
07:50 < Olloth> Grum: next time technic is launching a new modpack I'll let you know
07:50 < CanVox> Uh idunno
07:51 < CanVox> you wante d numbers
07:51 < Olloth> you can find out if it makes a measurable difference in your sales
07:51 < Olloth> or not
07:51 < Grum> we dont have good numbers
07:51 < Olloth> So
07:51 < CanVox> Grum: that's.... dumb
07:51 < CanVox> ok
07:51 < Grum> which is why it is so funny you believe you guys do
07:51 < nickelpro> lol, I believe that
07:51 < Olloth> so
07:51 < CanVox> Grum: We just have a few anecdotes
07:51 < CanVox> of people going
07:51 < Olloth> you don't have
07:51 < Olloth> okay
07:51 < CanVox> "Oh now I have to buy minecraft, ok"
07:51 < Grum> we just have trends
07:51 < Grum> the trend is that it is slowly going down
07:51 < Grum> but it has been like this since the start :)
07:51 < nickelpro> No one knows the numbers, it's probably not possible to get them
07:51 < Grum> we have the numbers
07:51 < Olloth> they just aren't good
07:51 < CanVox> Apparently
07:51 < Grum> but there is no relation to 'events' that can be distinguished
07:51 < Olloth> I guess
07:52 < nickelpro> Grum: Of how Technic affected your sales?
07:52 < CanVox> nickelpro: I didn't mean that we as an organization generally increase sales
07:52 < Olloth> Welp you heard it here folks
07:52 < Olloth> can't measure it?
07:52 < Olloth> must not matter
07:52 < nickelpro> lol
07:52 < CanVox> nickelpro: I mean tonight we shut down the ability of non-customers to install our modpacks
07:52 < Grum> no, its impossible to measure the source
07:52 < CanVox> And based on user responses, we believe there will be an uptick in sales over the next week
07:52 < Grum> or the cause rather
07:52 < Grum> CanVox: so people will buy the game because you launch a new modpack?
07:53 < Grum> you know our sales numbers are public right
07:53 < CanVox> Like day-to-day?
07:53 < Grum> https://minecraft.net/stats <--
07:53 < Grum> yes; last 24hr slice of 'sales'
07:53 < Grum> so go track it yourself
07:53 < CanVox> Do you have
07:53 < CanVox> historical numbers?
07:53 < Grum> we should
07:53 < CanVox> Like we should as in you think you do, or man we really should
07:53 < Olloth> CanVox: don't expect an API though
07:53 < Olloth> don't even suggest it
07:53 < CanVox> because I agree you really should
07:53 < Grum> i can ask if we 'saw a significant bump'
07:53 < CanVox> Well saturday would be the big day
07:54 < CanVox> If there's gonna be something measurable
07:54 < Grum> CanVox: i better hope we have that data; i'd be very sad -- and then angry if we didnt ;D
07:54 <+AndrewPH> I'm interested just because I get off to stats lol
07:54 < Grum> oh and then sad again because if we don't there is no way to obtain it beyond building a timemachine
07:55 < Grum> AndrewPH: same; i still want a public outlet for our snooper-data
07:55 < Olloth> can't measure what fostering a community does
07:55 < Olloth> might as well say fuck it
07:55 < Grum> we have over a year of data collected now :D
07:55 < Grum> ok
07:55 < Grum> lets say we get the numbers of saturday
07:55 < Grum> what would you guys consider a 'significant change' -- significant enough so it HAS to related to the modpack in technic?
07:55 < Grum> normally weekend-days do something like 14-20k orso
07:56 < Grum> and weekdays 9-14?
07:56 < Drainedsoul> Well statistics don't usually say things necessarily ARE related, so
07:56 < Drainedsoul> ;)
07:56 < Grum> that is my point
07:56 <+AndrewPH> it'd be interesting to see if it's possible, for sure
07:56 < Grum> there is no causality between the two events
07:56 < CanVox> Like does it bounce that much, 25% week over week?
07:56 < Grum> CanVox: weekend over week it does yeah
07:56 < CanVox> Well
07:56 < Drainedsoul> well, it's not that there isn't any, it's just that statistics don't say that there is.
07:56 < Grum> Drainedsoul: indeed
07:56 < CanVox> Like you were implying that one saturday it'll do 14k and the next it'll do 20k
07:56 < Grum> so from the numbers we have there is no direct proof
07:57 < Grum> only 'suggestion it has'
07:57 < Olloth> CanVox: how many installations of b team was there?
07:57 < Grum> CanVox: it can; there is no 100% steady line
07:57 < CanVox> Olloth: LET'S UNROLL THE ANALYTICS
07:57 < Grum> and i also pulled those numbers out of my ass from my experience glancing at that stats page at different times over the time i've worked for mojang
07:58 < Grum> a spike or dip could be as simple as a big chain putting out gamecards or running out of them
07:58 < Grum> or our servers getting ddossed
07:58 < CanVox> 650,000 since launch
07:58 < Grum> or parents getting their wages and deciding their kids can get the game
07:58 < CanVox> Sorry
07:58 < CanVox> 515k unique users
07:59 < Olloth> neat
07:59 < Olloth> you're tracking unique users now?
07:59 < Grum> so about 3% of the MC population
07:59 < CanVox> Yeah and tomorrow is payday, so I'm sure there will be a big bump regardless, probably won't be able to detect us in there
07:59 < Grum> CanVox: this all depends on countries
08:00 < Grum> some pay per week, some pay per 4 weeks, some pay per month at the 'week before end', or end
08:00 < Grum> for sweden paydays are typically around the 25th of the month
08:00 < umby24> and even depends on companies
08:00 < Grum> yes
08:00 < _123DMWM> I'm a bit confused now. What topic of argument are you guys at now? Some shitty modpack butthurt about user authentication?
08:00 < Olloth> there is no argument at the moment
08:00 < Olloth> we're just talking numbers
08:00 < Grum> guessing them :p
08:01 < _123DMWM> Oh, okay.
08:01 < Olloth> technics weren't guessed
08:01 < Olloth> :P
08:01 < Grum> sure, 515k unique users
08:01 < Grum> but this means .. what? :)
08:01 < Grum> 515k paid mc accounts?
08:01 < Olloth> 515k unique paid mc accounts installed the new modpack that was launched
08:01 < Olloth> (that's all it means)
08:02 < Grum> those numbers are quite nice
08:02 < Grum> is 3.6% statistically significant? i'm guessing that might be on the edge
08:03 < Grum> still damn nice numbers :)
08:03 < Olloth> yeah I'm curious as well
08:03 < CanVox> In a group of 17 million?
08:03 < CanVox> Uh
08:03 < CanVox> it's statistically significant in a survey of 1,000
08:03 < CanVox> So I'm pretty sure
08:03 < Grum> https://minecraft.net/stats -- 14,174,472
08:03 < Grum> 3.6% is significant?
08:03 < Olloth> yeah
08:03 < sct> When you are talking in millions of dollars, its massive?
08:04 < CanVox> I thought you meant in a statistical sense
08:04 < CanVox> Like
08:04 < Grum> well its a statistical thing
08:04 < Grum> i dont know if that would be considered significant :)
08:04 < sct> Good thing you are not on the marketing team
08:04 < Olloth> lol
08:04 < Olloth> amazon it's like 0.001% pop the champagne
08:05 < Grum> sct: if i would be i'd probably know :p
08:05 < Grum> we're going to be fucking over a bigger piece of the pie if we drop ogl1.x support >.>
08:05 <+AndrewPH> lots of babbies on their 20 year old computers that were stolen from a school district lol
08:05 < Grum> and that is not going to stop us from actually doing it :/
08:06 < Olloth> Grum: have you guys determined if that is % of new sales
08:06 < Olloth> or overall runs
08:06 < Olloth> or what
08:06 < Grum> i ran the numbers on a day of data again recently
08:06 < Grum> its still 6-7%-ish
08:06 < Grum> of all game-starts
08:07 < Grum> (which means nothing in a pure statistical sense, we have no idea how many unique users that actually is)
08:07 < Grum> we do not track such things
08:07 < Grum> to great dismay of our numbercruncher patrick =)
08:07 < Olloth> yeah no kidding
08:07 < Olloth> that is hugely important
08:07 < Grum> and we're actually 'nice enough' to not track that >.>
08:08 < Grum> its only important for advertisement crap
08:08 < Grum> and we do not really do that
08:08 < _123DMWM> I don't care what minecraft tracks from me, hell they could track my internet history
08:08 < Olloth> no someone else does your advertising
08:08 < Olloth> I'm trying to figure out who
08:08 < Eviltechie> _123DMWM: mind sending me your history and all your cookies then?
08:08 < Grum> _123DMWM: be happy notch cares :)
08:09 < _123DMWM> I ate all my cookies
08:09 < Grum> oh i have to laugh again to the person who implied Mojang just wants to 'make more money'
08:09 < Grum> obviously we're making money .. i mean the game is basically printing it
08:10 < Olloth> lol
08:10 < Grum> but we could have so easily gone the angrybirds way ... and you'd be all wearing underpants with creepers on it >.>
08:10 <+AndrewPH> Grum: but they sell underpants with creepers on it
08:10 <+AndrewPH> you don't, but some companies do!
08:10 < Olloth> I'm not wearing anything but glasses right now
08:10 < _123DMWM> make it a "free" game
08:10 < Grum> AndrewPH: not authed by us :P
08:10 < _123DMWM> pay $0.10 per block
08:10 < Olloth> and a headset
08:10 < Grum> _123DMWM: the asian market actually demands that
08:10 <+AndrewPH> Grum: also what's your opinion of those plushy creepers that are overstuffed and look more like dicks
08:10 < Grum> AndrewPH: pic?
08:11 <+AndrewPH> one sec
08:11 < Eviltechie> in b4 green dick pic
08:11 < Grum> HULKPENUS
08:11 < Grum> with googly eyes
08:11 <+AndrewPH> hahaha oh god
08:11 <+AndrewPH> http://i.imgur.com/3fZhixP.png
08:12 < Olloth> someones got dicks on the brain
08:12 <+AndrewPH> there are ones that are way rounder and look worse
08:12 < _123DMWM> "Your search - hulkpenis with googly eyes - did not match any documents."
08:12 < _123DMWM> dang it
08:12 <+AndrewPH> but that looks similar
08:12 <+AndrewPH> next time I'm at target I'll snap a pic if I have to
08:12 < flappy_> much too round imo
08:13 <+AndrewPH> they really shouldn't make plush things that need to be square
08:13 < Grum> _123DMWM: the internet now demands you make it!
08:13 < Grum> onto the shop to get google eyes and a green marker
08:13 <+AndrewPH> unless it's like this, which looks pretty decent but expensive http://i.imgur.com/XM3IOV9.png
08:13 < Grum> *googly
08:13 < _123DMWM> .-.
08:13 < _123DMWM> first I would need to find a hulk penis
08:13 < Grum> _123DMWM: macrolens
08:14 <+AndrewPH> just go on a porn site, they have ads where you can increase your penis length
08:14 <+AndrewPH> "it's like rocket fuel for your penis!"
08:14 < Eviltechie> Grum: what sort of things does mojang do to keep in tune with the community
08:14 < _123DMWM> http://explosm.net/show/episode/75/junk-mail
08:14 < Grum> Eviltechie: update the game so things become easier!
08:14 < Grum> _123DMWM: best one evar!
08:14 < _123DMWM> best green penis I could find
08:14 <+AndrewPH> Grum: also I must say 1.7.4 runs real smooth thx
08:15 <+AndrewPH> even when rendering a video it runs buttery smooth
08:15 < _123DMWM> I know, I was ming doge in the background while using a 512x resource pack. was getting around 40 fps
08:15 < _123DMWM> mining*
08:15 < Olloth> http://puu.sh/6T2tG.png
08:16 < umby24> Protocol still has some waste in it though, AndrewPH :P nothing huge but meh.
08:16 <+AndrewPH> umby24: it's at least easier for bungeecord to sort now that everything's length-prefixed
08:17 < Grum> yeah protocol is not done yet
08:17 < umby24> eh not like bungeecord is of much use to people with 0 users on their servers
08:17 < Grum> but it has so many dependencies
08:17 < Grum> its not funny
08:17 <+AndrewPH> umby24: an optimized protocol is in the same category
08:18 < Grum> and there is no sanity in ripping at parts if you *know* you are going to have to rip at them again
08:18 <+AndrewPH> both are useful for huge servers, neither are useful for empty servers
08:18 < umby24> Grum: Like what? (@Dependencies)
08:19 < Grum> umby24: errr i can optimize the world-data by miles with 'some changes'
08:19 < Grum> but it depends on ... pfft making it all modular enough so i *can* do that
08:19 < umby24> AndrewPH: Indeed, but when writing a library for it.. is a pain :P
08:19 < Grum> and for that we need to take it apart ... which cannot be done know because it is in need of major refactoring
08:20 < Grum> which cannot be done right now because there is still things tucked onto the outside of that
08:20 < umby24> Grum: I see. Requires even more major refactor of the whole game. got it.
08:20 < Grum> and then we have stupid things like 'random block ticks' that make other things impossible
08:20 < Grum> for example; we can save a lot of cpu on the server
08:20 <+AndrewPH> basically: lots of shit code that will take a while to get through
08:20 < Grum> by not unpacking the chunkdata that isn't actually needed
08:20 < Grum> because when we send it to the client, we have to pack it again .. which is stupid .. as its the same as i just read of the disk
08:21 < Grum> BUT because we have 'random ticking blocks' .... we cannot sanely dynamically unpack chunks when we need data form the block, because its guaranteed we're polling the block ..... and thus unpacking almost instantly
08:21 < umby24> which makes the dynamic unpack worthless
08:21 < Grum> but to get rid of random ticking blocks we need to make a proper scheduler, which is not really that much of a problem beyond actually changing and rebalancing all the game mechanics (minor) and more major, changing the worldformat and writing some form of converter ontop of our current static shit
08:22 < Grum> so!
08:22 < umby24> lmao, sounds like it's time to start over.
08:23 < Grum> to solve that ... we're refactoring the 'static shit' so we can put in a layer so we can put in new small things like a scheduled-blocks storage mechanic that doesn't need to have a final form because we can dynamically 'upgrade it'
08:23 <+AndrewPH> add googly-eyed hulk penis generators to minecraft
08:23 < Grum> so yeah
08:23 < Grum> erm, the actual protocol optimization is a bit away ;D
08:23 <+AndrewPH> oh wait, creepers.
08:23 < Grum> umby24: you'd be surprised how much of the 'same identical code' you'd write when you 'just start over'
08:24 < Grum> at least, i was when we did this 2yrs ago
08:24 < Eviltechie> hehe, I've been there before
08:24 < Eviltechie> "this code is shit, better start over" two hours later "damnit, back where I started"
08:24 < umby24> lmao
08:24 < Grum> or worse, at a point that cannot do what it has to do so you have to bend it even worse to make it do your bidding
08:25 < Grum> and that might not even be your mistake, it mist just have been a gross misdesign/abuse of the previous system
08:25 < Grum> *it might
08:25 < Grum> aaanyhow, that is my daily cycle in mc ;)
08:25 < Grum> clear out the parts enough so we can cut them out, create new parts and then graft those new parts into the existing codebase
08:28 < Grum> < Drainedsoul> we're supposed to believe grum has extreme standards, but he works on MINECRAFT and hasn't committed suicide? <-- =D
08:28 < Grum> that is because i like nothing more than to fix shit
08:29 <+AndrewPH> secretly he is dead, and programmed a perfect AI that only has tolerance for minecraft's broken-ness
08:29 < Grum> when i look at our code, the only thing i see is red flags
08:29 < Eviltechie> red flags indicate an abusive relationship
08:30 <+AndrewPH> that explains a certain divorce then
08:30 <+AndrewPH> ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
08:31 < Eviltechie> AndrewPH: i think i got that
08:37 <+AndrewPH> Eviltechie: if you thought "Notch and Ez", you were right and Hufflepuff gets 30 points
08:37 < umby24> lmao
08:39 < _123DMWM> I find it ironic that the few that are actualy mc devs on here are not voiced/op
08:43 <+AndrewPH> _123DMWM: that's because the group isn't for mojang developers, it's for third party development
08:43 <+AndrewPH> (or, well, was originally. now it's sortof both)
08:44 < _123DMWM> ah, okidoke
08:44 < SinZ> it is just somewhat convenient that they are here, so they can generally improve support for us or fix some bugs
08:45 <+AndrewPH> SinZ: "and on the list of things that happen 1% of the time..."
08:45 <+AndrewPH> :p
08:46 < SinZ> or the issues that only effect linux, that actually know how to linux well
08:46 < SinZ> that came out horribly
08:46 <+AndrewPH> you came out horri- wait that's a lot more offensive than I meant
10:28 < TobiX> clonejo: But I am ;)
12:32 < Not-003> [mcprotocol] thinkofdeath pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±102] http://git.io/YSAP6g
12:32 < Not-003> [mcprotocol] thinkofdeath ac17b73 - 14w07a
15:58 <+clonejo> TobiX: \o/
15:58 <+clonejo> #mcdevs people near me ++
17:07 < Dragon707> Iam back!
17:07 < Dragon707> Lost my password of my VPS server a few days ago haha
17:19 < TkTech> You use a password? ;-(
17:20 < Dragon707> For my VPS, yea... still need to make a keyfile :P
17:23 < TheUnnamedDude> Why not both? D:
17:25 < TkTech> The keyfile should have a password.
17:25 < TkTech> Password logins via ssh should be disabled immediately. A good VPS provider won't have it enabled to begin with.
17:26 < Dragon707> Hmm, will look at it tomorrow
17:26 < TkTech> AWS for example only uses keyfiles.
17:26 < TkTech> Take a look at your auth log.
17:26 < TkTech> You'll likely see hundreds of bruteforce attempts per day
17:26 < Dragon707> Im not sure if i want to see that log >.<
17:27 < Dragon707> but there are indeed much bruteforce attempts
17:30 < TkTech> Step #1 for a new box is to disable passwords. Step #2 is to setup firewall rules if not already done. Step #3 is to install fail2ban.
17:30 < TkTech> disallow all, allow 80
17:30 < TkTech> *22
17:30 < Dragon707> fail2ban is already setup 
17:31 < Dragon707> the FW did a classmate
17:31 < Dragon707> i share that server with him
17:32 < TkTech> In uni?
17:32 < Dragon707> uni ?
17:34 < TkTech> University.
17:35 < l4mRh4X0r> you should also totally curl $this_script_i_made | sudo bash
17:36 < TkTech> Yeah. Multiple problems with that. Ignoring the trust issue, people keep complaining about running half-downloaded scripts.
17:36 < TkTech> It's not even remotely difficult to add a checksum to the end of the file.
17:36 < TobiX> http://russianroulette.sh/
17:36 < Dragon707> Ah, not on the uni :) Just a regular MBO school here in the Netherlands :P
17:37 < Dragon707> We have to learn C# and PHP (Hate those things)
17:37 < TkTech> C# isn't too bad, CIL in general is okay.
17:38 < Dragon707> I dont use windows :(
17:38 < TkTech> And, honestly, there is a lot of money in PHP.
17:38 < shoghicp> PHP!
17:38 < Dragon707> Sure :P
17:38 < TkTech> For a school, they aren't bad choices.
17:38 < TkTech> Better than Cobol and Ada
17:38 < Dragon707> I have a little own company (freelancing) in PHP and NodeJS/Java
17:38 < shoghicp> someone is using my code to show people how to work with UDP :O
17:38 < shoghicp> in a university
17:38 < Dragon707> shoghicp: Nice :D
17:40 < Dragon707> running on ArchLinux, and (most)teachers says that linux sucks...
17:40 < Dragon707> Frustrating..
17:41 < TkTech> lolwut
17:41 < TkTech> Do they like the internet? Netflix? Cable boxes? Microsoft's own website is behind linux LBs...
17:42 < Dragon707> yep, they never touched linux i think
17:44 < Dragon707> They think windows is all, evrybdy is using it. (sure.. i dont xD), and many others..
17:44 < Dragon707> Oh and they force me to user windows. I am fine with that, as long it is in a vbox machine
17:48 < Dragon707> The most fun part is, im using a tilingWM (i3). When i have a question about something software related the take over my mouse and start messing up all kind of things
17:48 < Dragon707> Thats fun to watch haha :D
17:51  * Dragon707 is now away: Food :D
19:30 <+clonejo> Dragon707: I use i3 on my Thinkpad with the touchpad disabled and the Neo keyboard layout (simioar to dvorak). It's completely unusable to others.
21:37 < Not-003> [Glowstone] SpaceManiac pushed 1 commit [+0/-1/±4] http://git.io/VWusFw
21:37 < Not-003> [Glowstone] SpaceManiac c1b0e34 - Removed trove4j dependency favor of EnumSet and BlockIterator and disabled mysql and sqlite dependencies.
22:21 < Not-003> [Glowstone] SpaceManiac pushed 1 commit [+2/-1/±2] http://git.io/cVvCDw
22:21 < Not-003> [Glowstone] SpaceManiac 529ea6c - Implemented MultiBlockChange messages, hopefully finally fixing the chunk generation lag.
23:40 < Dragon707> clonejo: Indeed =D
23:45 < shoghicp> oh the joys of compiling
23:50 < TheUnnamedDude> http://xkcd.com/303/
23:51 < Dragon707> Hahaha indeed :D
23:58 < Dragon707> Oh shit, mounted a vmware machine with sshfs typed: git status
23:58 < Dragon707> That takes a loooong time
23:59 < shoghicp> TheUnnamedDude: exactly, but at least, I only have to wait to distrubute it :P
23:59 < shoghicp> distribute*
--- Day changed sam. févr. 15 2014
03:42 < Not-003> [Glowstone] SpaceManiac pushed 1 commit [+0/-0/±3] http://git.io/oNSrTA
03:42 < Not-003> [Glowstone] SpaceManiac c1b6db6 - Send player's position after the chunks have been sent for smoother load.
05:22 <+AndrewPH> TkTech: from now on, you must refer to man in the middle attacks as malcolm in the middle attacks
05:33 < dx> that was random
05:43 <+AndrewPH> only from your point of view
05:44 < dx> probably
16:57 < Drainedsoul> http://i.imgur.com/T2QkE7X.png if graphs could speak this one would say "what was I thinking 4 months ago?"
19:02 < TkTech> AndrewPH: I've gotta go with dx on this one, that's random.
19:02 < TkTech> I'm missing context.