22:54 < TkTech> TRocket: What project?
22:54 < TkTech> sadimusi: <3
22:54 < TRocket> benchmark standards for mc serves
22:54 < TRocket> *servers
22:56 < TkTech> TRocket: Existing repo? New repo? Project name?
22:58 < TRocket> i had got this working a couple of years ago with a java client spawning players, breaking blocks, etc. The code was on sourceforge...somewhere, i seem to remember it and another project of mine's svn repo got lost in the transition to allura. I'm planning to rewrite it anyway
22:59 < TkTech> Sooooo…project name?
22:59 < TRocket> BenchCraft
23:00 < TkTech> TRocket: https://github.com/mcdevs/BenchCraft
23:00 < TRocket> thanks
23:00 < TkTech> TRocket: You have push, pull, admin
23:01 < TRocket> thanks
23:01 < TRocket> i will try and work on it tomorrow
23:02 < TRocket> as my network switch seems to have died
23:02 < TRocket> and win8 is now using the wifi which it says i have not installed drivers for
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23:09 < Drainedsoul> I missed SirCmpwn talking down on people again, damn
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--- Day changed mer. juin 26 2013
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00:16 < InfinitePulsing> Hey, 'tis InfinitelyOscill(ating)
00:19  * InfinitePulsing sai hai
00:19 < InfinitePulsing> Anyone..
00:20 <+sadimusi> o/
00:20 < InfinitePulsing> Haylo.
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00:21 < InfinitePulsing> Basically, I'm going to start with my own little pack of Minecraft protocol goodies.
00:21 <+sadimusi> in what language?
00:22 < InfinitePulsing> An encryption, decryption class, and a way to format it.
00:22 < InfinitePulsing> Java.
00:22 < InfinitePulsing> I'll simply make a little encryption suite, no networking at all.
00:22 < InfinitePulsing> Just little things till I get up big, I don't expect myself to make a server for a while.
00:23 < dexter0> why not use BouncyCastle for crypto since you're doing it in Java.
00:23 < InfinitePulsing> I like reinventing the wheel.
00:23 <+sadimusi> your wheel will be slow ;)
00:23 < InfinitePulsing> Sadi, you'll be surprised.
00:23 < InfinitePulsing> I'm only making an encryption class.
00:23 < InfinitePulsing> Like, writeXXX()
00:24 < InfinitePulsing> With other goodies.
00:24 < InfinitePulsing> Anybody like IntelliJ idea?
00:24 < dexter0> best of luck rolling your own crypto...
00:25 < InfinitePulsing> yup..
00:25 < Yoshi2> there is reinventing the wheel, and then there is reinventing the material that wheel is made of ;)
00:26 < InfinitePulsing> It is easy, the cryptography is simple in terms of encode decode.
00:26 <+sadimusi> well, I sure hope you're not going to reimplement AES itself
00:26 < InfinitePulsing> No
00:26 < InfinitePulsing> LOL
00:26 < InfinitePulsing> NOT AES
00:26 < InfinitePulsing> I mean like
00:26 < InfinitePulsing> the writeShort()
00:26 < InfinitePulsing> writeBool()
00:26 < InfinitePulsing> That 'encryption' not 'crypto'
00:26 < InfinitePulsing> At least it was called encoding*
00:27 <+sadimusi> so you're just writing your own CipherStream using the ciphers from the std library?
00:27 < InfinitePulsing> =,=
00:27 < InfinitePulsing> no
00:27 < InfinitePulsing> Ex.
00:27 < InfinitePulsing> Packet1.writebool(true);
00:27 < InfinitePulsing> Packet1.writeInt(1); 
00:27 < InfinitePulsing> etc.
00:28 <+sadimusi> how is that any different from what I just said?
00:28 < InfinitePulsing> Sounds like C++
00:28 < InfinitePulsing> Don't know C++
00:28 < InfinitePulsing> Tried learning it and gave up
00:30 <+sadimusi> I was talking about java
00:30 < InfinitePulsing> afaik java has no std library
00:30 < InfinitePulsing> lol
00:30 <+sadimusi> d API you describe sounds about the same as combining a ObjectOutputStream with a CipherOutputStream
00:30 <+sadimusi> lol?
00:30 < InfinitePulsing> lolno
00:30 <+sadimusi> s/^d/the/
00:31 < InfinitePulsing> LOL.. 
00:32 <+sadimusi> well, just write it and I'll figure out what it is when you're done :)
00:32 < InfinitePulsing> Essentially..
00:32 < InfinitePulsing> hmm
00:32 < InfinitePulsing> A servermessage
00:35 < Yoshi2> well, if you do it right, you can tack on a bit of networking and you'll have a working wrapper for sending encrypted data to a server
00:48 < InfinitePulsing> Curious.
00:48 < InfinitePulsing> Would a bool be stored as a 0 and  1 or (char) 0 / (char) 1
00:49 < InfinitePulsing> Or else there would be no distinction..
00:49 < InfinitePulsing> In the mc protocol (data types)
00:50 <+sadimusi> it's 0x0 and 0x1, no strings
00:52 <+SirCmpwn> InfinitePulsing: your wheel will not only be slow but also be terrible
00:52 <+SirCmpwn> don't do your own crypto, man
00:52 < Yoshi2> in the protocol bools are bytes with the value 0 or 1
00:52 <+SirCmpwn> heh, you gave up learning C++
00:52 <+SirCmpwn> please, do your work in a private manner, InfinitePulsing
00:53 <+SirCmpwn> people might find your repository and learn from you
00:53 <+sadimusi> SirCmpwn: remember how you denied being hostile towards new people in here? :P
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00:55 <+SirCmpwn> sadimusi: most new people don't say they're going to implement their own crypto and then turn around and ask "Would a bool be stored as a 0 and  1 or (char) 0 / (char) 1"
00:55 <+SirCmpwn> there's a lower limit to my tolerance of ignorance
00:55 <+sadimusi> SirCmpwn: fair enough :)
01:00 < Yoshi2> to be fair, he did say that he only wanted to write his own (what seems like a) cryptostream, which is not as bad as reimplementing AES or something like that
01:00 < InfinitePulsing> Dude
01:01 < InfinitePulsing> It's not a crypto like rs
01:01 < InfinitePulsing> a
01:01 < InfinitePulsing> http://forum.ragezone.com/f353/servermessage-new-crypto-874485/
01:01 < InfinitePulsing> That type of thing.
01:01 <+sadimusi> so more of a reimplementation of ObjectOutputStream
01:01  * InfinitePulsing sigh
01:02 < InfinitePulsing> Is this a class in the official library
01:02 <+SirCmpwn> isn't objectoutputstream binary serialization
01:02 < InfinitePulsing> or a class in the mc server
01:02 <+sadimusi> http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/io/ObjectOutputStream.html
01:02 < InfinitePulsing> Sir
01:02 < InfinitePulsing> It is.
01:02 < InfinitePulsing> Packet serializing.
01:02 <+SirCmpwn> that's not a good idea.
01:03 < InfinitePulsing> It's a simple class xD.
01:03 < InfinitePulsing> Dude.
01:03 <+sadimusi> that's not really what I understand under packet serializing
01:03 < InfinitePulsing> It's not aes and stuff
01:03 < InfinitePulsing> I mean like
01:03 < InfinitePulsing> packet structures..
01:03 <+SirCmpwn> serializing packets is not a good idea, I mean
01:03 < InfinitePulsing> Sir
01:03 <+SirCmpwn> are you going to use reflection every single time you read or write a packet?
01:03 <+sadimusi> sure it is
01:03 < InfinitePulsing> Just shut your ignorant mouth.
01:03 <+SirCmpwn> serializing in a way similar to objectoutputstream*
01:04 < InfinitePulsing> It's not a good idea as you want me to not contribute.
01:04 < InfinitePulsing> Fix your attitude. I don't like people like you.
01:04 < InfinitePulsing> You're acting  "oh-holier-than-thou"
01:04 < InfinitePulsing> It's not funny, so fix it.
01:04 < InfinitePulsing> Rant = over.
01:05 <+SirCmpwn> if you're going to release code that's badly written and badly designed, it poisons the community as a whole
01:05 <+SirCmpwn> new users see it and learn from it
01:05 < InfinitePulsing> Sir.
01:05 <+SirCmpwn> and I am holier than thou, I've written a hell of a lot of Minecraft-related code
01:05 < InfinitePulsing> I am not incompetent.
01:05 < InfinitePulsing> I don't intend to release pieces of shit code.
01:05 <+sadimusi> SirCmpwn: don't act like you've never released bad code
01:05 < InfinitePulsing> SirCmpwn, fix your attitude.
01:05 < InfinitePulsing> You sound like a narcissistic piece of shit.
01:05 < InfinitePulsing> I never curse unless I mean it.
01:06 <+SirCmpwn> sadimusi: I have, but I usually mark it as unsupported or delete it, or make it clear in some other means that it shouldn't be used
01:06 < InfinitePulsing> Fix yourself, you are not the god of the community.
01:06 <+SirCmpwn> that doesn't take into account code that I don't realize is bad, but I'd appriciate it when that code is pointed out so I can fix it or apply such a marking
01:07 < InfinitePulsing> Just because you write code doesn't mean anything, you want to have things "perfect".
01:07 < InfinitePulsing> Sadi, can you see where my frustration is coming from?
01:07 <+SirCmpwn> InfinitePulsing: you haven't listened to a single word I've said to you this whole time. Maybe you should consider it.
01:08 < InfinitePulsing> At least Sadi explained h(is/er)'s link, and helped me.
01:08 < InfinitePulsing> Sir, that's because you're ignorant.
01:08 <+SirCmpwn> of what?
01:08 < InfinitePulsing> I refuse to listen to you, so frankly dear, I don't give a fuck.
01:08 < InfinitePulsing> You act like you're holier than everyone, stop it. Stop this subtle ego of yours.
01:09 < dexter0> I thought you were finished ranting?
01:09 < InfinitePulsing> I deduce this from only 3/4 dialogues with you.
01:09 < InfinitePulsing> Dexter, "SirCmpwn" is a bit.. pissing me off in short.
01:09 <+SirCmpwn> enough, InfinitePulsing
01:09 <+SirCmpwn> this conversation is no longer productive and it detracts from the content of this channel
01:09 <+SirCmpwn> continue arguing with me privately if you insist
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01:37 < dav1d> lol
01:39 < dav1d> #mcdevs the place for dumb discussions
01:42 <+ammar2> better than no discussions I suppose
01:43 <+sadimusi> "There is no item named 'java/lang/Object.class' in the archive" m(
01:43 <+sadimusi> it's always the smallest things breaking burger :/
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02:07 <+SirCmpwn> sadimusi: so it's fixed?
02:07 <+sadimusi> looks like mob textures and most of the more complex packets are still broken
02:10 <+sadimusi> funny, on my machine it worked fine
02:18 <+sadimusi> I'll try to figure that out another time, for now I just uploaded the output I get locally
02:18 <+sadimusi> the entity textures are still missing, but other than that it looks fine http://b.wiki.vg/1.5.2...1.6
02:18 <+SirCmpwn> sadimusi: 1.6 doesn't actually exist :|
02:18 <+SirCmpwn> oh, shit, yes it does
02:19 <+sadimusi> I was surprised as well
02:19 <+SirCmpwn> looks like I have a busy night ahead of me
02:19 <+SirCmpwn> sadimusi: you mentioned that complex packets are broken, is this packet diff accurate?
02:19 <+sadimusi> yes, this one is from my computer
02:19 <+SirCmpwn> sadimusi: <3
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03:04 < ryan-c> Is the Server ID consistent across restarts in the vanilla server?
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03:12 < ryan-c> oh, now I get it. The serverId field is sent to session.minecraft.net and it's derived in part from the server's public key, so you can't use it on a different server
03:18 < ryan-c> Actually, I'm confused, what's the sessionId and what's serverId? I see serverId as 'hash' here: http://wiki.vg/Protocol_Encryption
03:22 < ryan-c> I guess serverId there is different form the Server ID string.
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03:52 < fragmer_> hm gotta get back to the znc
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04:30 < Eloston> Do you guys know how Minecraft checks if it is running in an applet or not?
04:32 <+SirCmpwn> I don't know that it checks at all, Eloston
04:32 <+SirCmpwn> what effect does it have?
04:39 < Eloston> I don't know of any known effect, just wondering
04:40 < Eloston> And it somehow does check, because when I use my shell script to launch 1.5.2, it says false for applet
04:44 <+SirCmpwn> I see
04:45 <+SirCmpwn> well, I don't know how it checks, sounds like something you'd need to go to the decompiled source for
05:15 <+SirCmpwn> the new chat is even worse than I expected
05:16 <+SirCmpwn> is it not possible to just give the client chat? It has to be formatted into one of the chat "types"?
05:16 <+SirCmpwn> I know there's the `text` json field, but I thought that was being depreciated soon
05:22 < Eloston> meh, I honestly don't know why they want fancy formatting
05:22 < Eloston> chat is fine the way it is now
05:24 <+SirCmpwn> I argued with Gr.m and D.nnerbone at length about how stupid the change is
05:24 <+SirCmpwn> they didn't really listen.
05:37 < Drainedsoul> you'd think with all the things wrong with Minecraft they'd be interested in fixing those
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05:38 < Not-001> [fCraft] fragmer * r2048 3 files : Started working on /SetGen command.
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06:08 <+SirCmpwn> somehow, I'm not surprised that they started sending an extra ~128 byte packet with useless information for every single entity spawned
06:09 <+SirCmpwn> actually, that information might be useful for cheating
06:09 <+SirCmpwn> https://gist.github.com/SirCmpwn/a82ce86db20b86a177ae
06:11 <+SirCmpwn> why was this necessary considering the (admittedly shitty) entity metadata system already exists (and was not removed)?
06:12 < Drainedsoul> wow sending strings, they couldn't give them corresponding integer values eh
06:15 <+SirCmpwn> fun fact, the 0xCA "Player Abilities" packet is still sent, but the walking/flying speed given there is discarded in favor of an 0x2C "Entity Properties" packet, though both are sent
06:16 < Drainedsoul> who even programs this shit
06:17 < Drainedsoul> I often find myself wondering how someone could sit there and think "ahh yes, this is a sensible design"
06:17 <+SirCmpwn> Dinnerbone.
06:17 <+SirCmpwn> Grum.
06:17 <+SirCmpwn> maybe jens
06:17 <+SirCmpwn> but I'd bet Dinnerbone was behind these changes
06:17 < Drainedsoul> oh?  why's that?
06:17 <+SirCmpwn> he seems to have a thing for appeasing the map makers with features like these
06:18 < Eloston> We should try to promote a whole protocol rewrite to make things cleaner, easier to understand, and nicer on the network (if possible)
06:18 < Drainedsoul> "the map makers"?  How does this appease them?
06:18 <+SirCmpwn> mojang as a whole seems to be behind json chat, fyi. It's only the entity property stuff I'm blaming on Dinnerbone
06:18 <+SirCmpwn> Drainedsoul: custom max health and movement speed for entities, among other things
06:18 < Drainedsoul> ohh okay
06:19 <+SirCmpwn> Eloston: we've tried, many times, going back long before you arrived
06:19 <+SirCmpwn> long before I arrived, even
06:20 < Grum> json chat while being 'a bit large' was just a needed change
06:20 < Grum> we can use something other than json later if 'size is a problem' which i doubt
06:20 < Grum> the 128byte thing per entity however, wtf?
06:20 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: don't get rid of {"text":"..."} please
06:20 < Grum> SirCmpwn: we wont' we'll just stop supporting the \ua7's in it
06:20 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: and if you do, have a way for us to give text without specifying a translation thing to use
06:20 < Drainedsoul> I don't really understand how json chat was needed.  I mean the client is basically a retarded minion to the server in every regard, but echoing formatting chat messages without semantic meaning, that was the breaking point?
06:21 < Grum> Drainedsoul: being able to send nestable translatable strings
06:21 < Grum> without having the translations on the server
06:21 < barneygale> Yeah it's a good idea
06:21 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: the 128 bytes per entity thing is packet 44. It does a few others stupid things, if you're interested in hearing about them
06:21 < Grum> (because they update slow, do not allow for 'custom' ones)
06:21 < barneygale> I just think the colour code removal will make things harder in a few places
06:21 < Grum> SirCmpwn: i didnt knwo about it
06:22 <+SirCmpwn> and I am informing you now :P
06:22 < Grum> barneygale: you can nest/chain the {text:}...
06:22 <+SirCmpwn> barneygale: I'll write up some code to translate legacy chat format into json stuff
06:22 < ShaRose> Grum is it acceptable to open this sort of issue on the jira out of curiousity?
06:22 < Grum> what sort of?
06:22 < barneygale> Will the API for it be nice? In CH you just do a string concatination with `color(red)` or wharever
06:22 < Grum> the 128byte packet44?
06:23 < Grum> yes, imho that might be highly overkill; have someone justify it
06:23 < ShaRose> like, code issues in general
06:23 < Grum> ShaRose: depends
06:23 < Grum> easier to do it here
06:23 < Drainedsoul> if internationalization is such a concern, does that mean strings will be UTF-16 soon?
06:23 <+SirCmpwn> ooh, we can do technical details in the bug tracker?
06:23 <+SirCmpwn> I'm going to have a field day
06:23 < Grum> Drainedsoul: not sure what that has to do with anything
06:23 <+SirCmpwn> well, a restrained and responsible field day
06:23 < ShaRose> SirCmpwn that's what I just thought of yeah
06:23 < Drainedsoul> well you're worried about translatable strings, but you don't support the whole Unicode code space?
06:23 < Grum> i dont think the bugtracker is a good place for that
06:23 < barneygale> Additionally, do you know if colour codes / text markup will be available in MOTD, signs, player names?
06:24 <+SirCmpwn> Drainedsoul: does anyone actually use the rest of unicode
06:24 < Drainedsoul> CJK does
06:24 < ShaRose> can we get a ~special~ bugtracker just for that purpose, like the MC-API one sort of?
06:24 <+SirCmpwn> CJK?
06:24 < Drainedsoul> Chinese, Japanese, Korean
06:24 < Grum> ShaRose: not sure
06:24 <+SirCmpwn> ShaRose: I suspect it wouldn't take long for them to ignore it like they usually ignore this channel
06:24 <+SirCmpwn> Drainedsoul: I see
06:25 <+SirCmpwn> Drainedsoul: I suppose kanji fits in there, but most japanese use hirigana, and korean is a similar story
06:25 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: I think a mailing list regarding technical information would be a good idea
06:26 <+ammar2> mailing list?
06:26 <+ammar2> 2013?
06:26 < ShaRose> ^
06:26 <+SirCmpwn> they're still pretty active, and would reduce the number of non-technical users that would try to get involved
06:26 < ShaRose> maybe even a usenet board! lol!
06:27 < Grum> afk for ~40 mins making breakfast etc
06:27 < barneygale> Grum: MOTD, signs, player names? Sorry to be a bother but a few of us were a bit concerned, especially about signs
06:27 <+SirCmpwn> I second the concern regarding signs, barneygale Grum
06:27 <+SirCmpwn> ShaRose: I'm going to make a packet 44 bug report
06:27 < ShaRose> do it
06:28 < Eloston> I like the mailing list idea
06:28 < ShaRose> forum
06:28 < ShaRose> :(
06:29 <+ammar2> forums definetly tend to attract a lot of non technically orientated users
06:29 < ShaRose> yeah add a question about the code before they can register
06:30 <+SirCmpwn> bad idea
06:30 <+SirCmpwn> not everyone knows anything about the decompiled code (and they probably shouldn't be officially condoning that sort of thing)
06:31 < ShaRose> about code in general
06:31 < Drainedsoul> what kind of code?  What's an example of a question that's going to have the universality not to give false positives, but still keep non-technical people out?
06:32 <+SirCmpwn> mailing list makes this problem disappear, which is why I suggested it
06:32 <+SirCmpwn> it also keeps mojang from adopting a public stance that appears hostile to non-technical users
06:33 < dexter0> +1 for mailing list
06:36 <+SirCmpwn> https://mojang.atlassian.net/browse/MC-19208
06:37 <+SirCmpwn> ShaRose: 
06:37  * SirCmpwn goes back to documenting 1.6
06:38 < ShaRose> I was on newegg and this guy was talking about how he was amazed he got something in less than 24 hoursw
06:38 < ShaRose> I ordered a 60 pound chair from the US with amazon. it shipped thursday, I got it monday
06:38 <+SirCmpwn> there's a new field on the open window packet that is only sent when the window type is 11
06:39 <+SirCmpwn> we currently are only aware of window types 0-9
06:39 < ShaRose> this was with standard international shipping
06:39 <+SirCmpwn> these windows are probably related to mules, but I'm interested to learn what the new field is used for with them
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06:51 -!- Paprikachu [~Paprikach@77.116.131.244.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #mcdevs
06:53 <+SirCmpwn> 11 is for horse inventories
06:55 <+SirCmpwn> I'm seeing a weird value for that int when it's sent with a horse inventory
06:56 <+SirCmpwn> will research more
06:57 <+SirCmpwn> 11 is also sent for donkey inventories
06:58 <+SirCmpwn> oooh, interesting: donkeys only have one inventory slot, but the packet says two
07:02 -!- Zartec [~Thunderbi@95-89-157-17-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #mcdevs
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn pushed 34 commits to snapshot [+8/-0/±105] http://git.io/Gz3bbg
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] ggrote cd32db8 - - added cleaned chat message to Events/ChatMessageEventArgs.cs - fixed player position (y/stance) - added UpdateSign Handler - fixed MapChunkBulk and ChunkData Handlers - moved reading chunk from stream into single method - added LookAt and "basic" Move to MinecraftClient.Actions - fixed finding blocks by position
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] ggrote 7c5b15f - - changed ChatHandler to use indexof and remove instead of regex - reverted EntityHandlers.cs - removed braces and changed formatting - changed Move to start an async thread for movement - removed ProtocolVersion and FriendlyVersion as they are not used anymore
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] ggrote 617af5e - name refactoring
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] ggrote 903079b - added userid to session
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn dc43e73 - Upped protocol version
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 4132736 - Added MinecraftClient.MoveTo
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 38f03b7 - Cancel current client move operation before starting another
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 2ab8fa6 - Reponse to cancellation request
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] aholmes 12c2633 - Fix server crash when sending packets to disconnected clients #155
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn ebaa56f - Merge pull request #156 from aholmes/master Fix issue #155
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] aholmes 778c19a - Fix issue with players respawning under the map. This is done by adding the PlayerEntity.Height to Level.SpawnPoint. This change also changes storing the PlayerEntity.Height with the position when the user exits. Instead, I opted to add the height wherever needed. This has the effect of not dropping the user twice as high during respawn than during login. Issue #154
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] aholmes be3e34c - Correct whitespace
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn a6468df - Fix #158
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 10d2208 - Merge branch 'master' of github.com:SirCmpwn/Craft.Net
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 05f5b3a - Drop inventory on player death
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 6e4ea7e - Fix death spamming when falling into the void
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 330e914 - Slowed down death by void
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 3303737 - Merge remote-tracking branch 'aholmes/master'
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn b30f227 - Fix formatting issue with pull request
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 8277e52 - Removed test code from flatland generator
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 5ddf97a - Added tab complete event, closes #151
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 464e36d - Added TabCompleteEventArgs.Handled to avoid sending responses unless needed
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn a424a9f - Added TabCompleteEventArgs.Client
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 3be8aef - Fix client bug related to connecting to online mode servers in offline mode
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn f478f03 - Added overloads to do DNS lookups and such for the user
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn f480ba5 - Added support for dropping item stacks in creative mode
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn a271f8f - Update fNbt
07:08 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] pdelvo 4cb24c7 - Does now support IpV6!
07:09 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn a1dd676 - Merge pull request #169 from pdelvo/ipv6 Does now support IpV6!
07:09 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 78cff86 - Add new packets
07:09 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn ff1eac9 - Merge master into snapshot
07:09 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 5580ab9 - Basic 1.6 support
07:09 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 6eab3ef - Fixed walking/flying speed for 1.6, fixed another changed packet
07:09 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 3a3ac91 - Update README
07:09 <+SirCmpwn> viola, 1.6 support in C.N
07:09 < Grum> feel free to make a mailing list; it will mean i will *NEVER* respond to it
07:09 < Grum> if there is anything annoying its a mailinglist
07:10 < ShaRose> Grum what say you about a forum
07:10 < ShaRose> invite only, even
07:10 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: an alternative would be a welcome relief after lots of stress here about technical problems going unsolved
07:10 < Grum> ShaRose: also not good
07:10 < ShaRose> bugtracker area for it it is
07:11 <+SirCmpwn> you could just give me jeb's phone number
07:11 < Grum> name one big technical problem that is unsolved?
07:11 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: define 'big'
07:11 < ShaRose> anyways I need to go to sleep, 2:40 am
07:11 < Grum> one that would stress-you-out-big
07:11 < Drainedsoul> I thought the whole server and protocol were just one big technical problem
07:11 <+SirCmpwn> ^
07:11 <+SirCmpwn> I suppose one of the more important items is server list ping breaking multi-version support
07:11 < ShaRose> I lold there, I admit
07:12 <+SirCmpwn> there is also a ton of extraneous data going over the network, Grum, browse through an SMProxy log when you have some time
07:12 <+SirCmpwn> maybe 10% of what goes over the wire doesn't need to
07:12 < Grum> only 10%
07:12 < Grum> seems minimal
07:13 <+SirCmpwn> expand that over the lifetime of a game session
07:13 < Eloston> heh
07:13 <+SirCmpwn> that's probably a few dozen megabytes
07:13 <+SirCmpwn> in about a half hour
07:14 < Grum> o m g
07:14 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: another problem: there are at least a dozen ways to encode 3D coordinates
07:14 < Grum> my tears contain more information than that
07:14 < Grum> SirCmpwn: yeah also not going to be fixed
07:14 <+SirCmpwn> your tears contain more information than your hard drive, Grum
07:14 < Grum> you guys are only talking about protocol shit
07:14 < Grum> i can tell you now, we will not fix that any time soon
07:14 <+SirCmpwn> ...that's what we do here
07:14 < Grum> it really is the last priority
07:14 < Grum> SirCmpwn: i have excessively big harddrives ;)
07:15 <+SirCmpwn> unfortunately for us, your last priority is our first priority and takes up most of our time
07:15 < Eloston> Also if you don't clean up protocol shit now, it takes more effort to clean it out later
07:15 <+SirCmpwn> it's not that straightforward to reverse engineer a network protocol, especially a stupid one
07:16 < Grum> Eloston: bullshit
07:16 < Grum> SirCmpwn: luckily you have the source
07:16 < Eloston> well increased entropy
07:16 < Grum> Eloston: there has been barely any change to the protocol (major change)
07:16 < Grum> since 1.3 orso
07:16 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: figuring out what each field does is half the battle
07:16 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: if you'd like to provide us with unobsfucated source, though, I'm down ;)
07:16 < Grum> mcp.
07:17 <+SirCmpwn> they have to unobsfucate it, too
07:17 <+SirCmpwn> we're the first ones to see that stuff, Grum
07:18 <+SirCmpwn> anyway, reverse engineering the protocol is just one problem we face, it's core to our projects and the bonkers protocol makes our projects worse
07:19 < Eloston> Also has the client choosing not to do encryption problem been resolved yet?
07:19 < Eloston> I think that's a security risk
07:19 <+SirCmpwn> only works on offline mode servers, they'll never fix it
07:19 < Eloston> oh
07:20 <+SirCmpwn> Mojang is great about not fixing a lot of things
07:20 <+SirCmpwn> anything having to do with offline mode is one of them
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07:20 <+SirCmpwn> anything we ask for, really
07:22 < Grum> you play offline? you have no protection
07:22 < Grum> your risk.
07:22 <+SirCmpwn> and a bug becomes a feature
07:22 < Grum> we can remove offline mode if you want
07:22 < Grum> what bug become a feature?
07:23 <+SirCmpwn> haha, that won't just piss *us* off
07:23 < Grum> i know
07:23 < Grum> that is why offline mode still exists
07:23 < Grum> if it were up to me it would have been removed already
07:23 <+SirCmpwn> I'm sure all of us here would love to buy another two or three accounts to test with
07:24 < Eloston> Well if offline mode is removed someone out there will create a mod to re-enable it
07:24 < Grum> oh so i can remove it
07:24 < Grum> thanks Eloston
07:25 -!- Zartec [~Thunderbi@95-89-157-17-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Zartec]
07:25 < Grum> SirCmpwn: not really sure what the problem is with offlinemode and not having encryption
07:26 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: it's not really a problem, but I'm sure it wans't intentional
07:26 < Grum> it is
07:26 <+SirCmpwn> alright, alright
07:27 <+SirCmpwn> that's a pretty stupid stance to take: you want to play on a LAN, or maybe on a plane, or (any other place where offline mode is acceptable)? We'll just throw out your privacy
07:27 < Grum> there is nothing to protect?
07:27 <+SirCmpwn> I should write up a PoC of taking over the connection of someone else on the network
07:27 < Grum> you can pick any name you want?
07:28 <+SirCmpwn> it protects you from snoopers
07:28 < Grum> yeah you can just join the server as that person without ANY 'major changes'
07:28 < Grum> erm
07:28 < Grum> snoopers of what information?
07:28 < Grum> you moving around in the world?
07:28 < Grum> seriously?
07:28 <+SirCmpwn> your chat, for one thing
07:28 < Grum> no-one has ever cared for that
07:28 < Eloston> Then why even have encryption in the first place?
07:28 < Grum> and now all of the sudden that is a problem?
07:28 < Drainedsoul> so why is encryption involved in the first place
07:29 < Grum> sigh
07:29 < Grum> MITM
07:29 <+SirCmpwn> ^
07:29 < Grum> the uninformed wake up
07:29 < Grum> good morning uninformed.
07:29 < Eloston> but the MITM must care about chat or something then
07:29 <+SirCmpwn> forgive Drainedsoul and Eloston, they haven't been here long
07:29 < Grum> yeah but its the same story over and over and over :/
07:29 < Grum> Eloston: no, the MITM cares about not having a MITM
07:30 < Drainedsoul> but we just established that we weren't concerned about that
07:30 < Grum> and just to make sure; Man In The Middle
07:30 < Grum> yes you are concerned about that
07:30 <+SirCmpwn> I've had that same thought for the past half hour, Grum, though I'm probably thinking it for a different reason
07:30 < Grum> someone can 'lure' you to a server and then take over the server you admin
07:30 <+SirCmpwn> Drainedsoul: MITM affects online mode when encryption is turned off
07:30 < Grum> while appearting to be you on an online server
07:30 < Grum> rather harmful
07:30 < Grum> and it was actively exploited
07:31 < Grum> for offline servers? we just do not give a fuck
07:31 < Grum> because if you want to play offline? you go play offline
07:31 < Drainedsoul> so it's not that man in the middle, snooping, etc. aren't actually a problem w/offline mode, it's that you don't care about the problem
07:31 <+SirCmpwn> mitm is irrelevant in offline mode
07:31 < Grum> erm, no, mitm only applies to online mode
07:31 < Grum> in offline mode you can take ANY nick
07:31 <+SirCmpwn> well, except for servers which ask you to enter a password or whatever, which I'm *definitely* sure mojang doesn't support
07:32 < Grum> so why even bother with encryption to ensure you are the only person using the nick you authed for
07:32 <+SirCmpwn> in any case, there are significantly bigger fish to fry on Mojang's part, and they aren't being fried
07:32 < Drainedsoul> so why is the whole protocol encrypted, and not just the handshake?
07:32 < Grum> ....
07:33 < Grum> because that wouldnt defeat MITM
07:33 < Grum> the person playing MITM could jsut wait until the handshake is over
07:33 < Grum> and then inject its packets
07:33 < Eloston> Hold on, so when you're in online mode, you cannot have a client that doesn't send an encryption response?
07:33 < Grum> Eloston: indeed
07:33 <+SirCmpwn> correct, Eloston
07:33 < Eloston> oh ok
07:33 < Grum> you will get booted
07:33 < Eloston> k
07:33 < Grum> SirCmpwn: we're not just doing these mini incremental changes to the protocol
07:33 < Grum> we rather overhaul it properly
07:34 < Grum> for that almost all other things have to change first
07:34 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: you guys have said you'd overhaul the protocol since bukkit team was hired
07:34 < Grum> so that is what we'll be doing and that is why the 'protocol' is really near the tail of my todolist
07:34 <+SirCmpwn> I seriously doubt it'll ever happen, other things take priority
07:34 < Grum> yakshaving SirCmpwn
07:34 <+SirCmpwn> yakshaving?
07:34 < Drainedsoul> yeah the problem with technical debt is it's too tempting and easy to defer
07:35 <+ammar2> something something thicker fur needs to be cut first then get to the tail
07:35 < Grum> SirCmpwn: the common term for 'having to do shit to be able to do shit'
07:35 < Grum> lets just say that we have a lot of that 'shit'
07:36 < Eloston> more accurately as: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yak_shaving
07:36 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: the problem, in your case, with 'having to do A to be able to do B' is that A regenerates
07:36 < Drainedsoul> ^
07:36 <+SirCmpwn> by the time you get to B, I imagine everyone will have moved on to Minecraft 2
07:37 < Grum> ok so name one 'major' inefficiency that needs to be fixed in the protocol?
07:37 < Grum> beyond just 'making in sane in general'
07:37 <+SirCmpwn> inefficiency or problem
07:37 < Grum> a thing that makes you 'stress out really badly'
07:37 <+SirCmpwn> the only thing that makes me "stress out really badly" is the whole protocol and everything you guys keep doing to it each update ;)
07:38 <+SirCmpwn> but the biggest isolated problem I can think of is the bloody server list ping
07:38 < Drainedsoul> what's wrong with that?
07:38 <+ammar2> uhh, it has this weird form of backward compatibility
07:38 <+SirCmpwn> breaks multi-version servers/proxies, and there are a couple of things that would make it a lot nicer
07:38 <+ammar2> Schrödinger's byte
07:38 <+SirCmpwn> it's also terrible in general since they had a stupid way of doing it originally and are stuck with maintaining it forever
07:38 < Drainedsoul> oh I just ignore the backwards compatibility
07:39 < Grum> Drainedsoul: we cant do that 'so easily'
07:39 < Grum> SirCmpwn: that is the big problem in general; lack of design from 'ye olden days'
07:39 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: easy solution: use a new packet ID and design a new server list ping
07:39 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: and ask us for help when you do so it's not mucked up again
07:40 <+SirCmpwn> why that wasn't done when it was changed a few versions ago is beyond me
07:40 < Grum> so now the real question is
07:41 < Grum> why do you guys not have written a wrapper for the 'broken protocol' sanifying it?
07:41 <+SirCmpwn> most of us do write wrappers
07:41 < Grum> SirCmpwn: this has to so with the horrible weird dns magic?
07:41 <+SirCmpwn> but you can wrap up shit all you want, all you're holding is a pile of shitty wrapping
07:41 < Grum> that someone implemented only halfway?
07:41 < Grum> and made it based on sun.* classes?
07:41 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: what
07:42 <+SirCmpwn> what horrible weird DNS magic, SRV records?
07:42 < Grum> yes
07:42 < Grum> in the code that is horribly weird dns magic
07:42 <+SirCmpwn> that's one thing that could be made better by a new server list ping
07:42 <+SirCmpwn> I don't read vanilla code, Grum
07:42 < Grum> you do
07:42 <+SirCmpwn> but the primary thing it'd solve is multi-version servers (which do exist)
07:42 <+SirCmpwn> well, did exist
07:43 < Grum> not sure why you would want multi-version servers :/
07:43 <+SirCmpwn> pdelvo has a proxy that supports back to 1.3.x
07:43 <+SirCmpwn> I used to write a bunch of software to hold people over between bukkit updates
07:43 <+SirCmpwn> etc, etc, etc
07:44 < Drainedsoul> honestly though, backwards compatibility is the bane of sane code and interfaces
07:44 < Drainedsoul> see: The Windows API
07:44 < Grum> SirCmpwn: i really do not see any benefit in having a multi-version-server
07:45 < Grum> it only justifies 'not updating', prolongs existence of weirdass bugs
07:45 <+SirCmpwn> they're not your bugs
07:45 <+SirCmpwn> you don't support multiversion, so it's obviously some third party software, why would your bugs exist in third party software?
07:46 < Grum> there is no good reason *ever* to play with an old version of mc
07:46 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: my solutions for laggy bukkit as described before were usually to allow new clients to play on old servers while bukkit/plugins updated
07:47 < Grum> which is stupid?
07:47 < Grum> if the server doesnt update, why would the client?
07:47 <+SirCmpwn> because the bloody launcher asks them to in 40 point font
07:48 <+SirCmpwn> and most players don't play on just one server
07:48 < Grum> used to.
07:48 < Grum> boom all validity killed.
07:48 < Grum> so we dont need it anymore
07:48 < Grum> perfect :D
07:48 <+SirCmpwn> you frustrate me, Grum.
07:49 < Eloston> I don't see evidence that people don't play on multiple servers
07:49 <+SirCmpwn> why don't we look back at that SRV stuff you brought up
07:50 < Grum> SirCmpwn: you made something because people are stupid; no we have something so taht stupid people can revert their stupidness
07:50 < Grum> i mean, problem solved?
07:50 <+SirCmpwn> <SirCmpwn> why don't we look back at that SRV stuff you brought up
07:51 <+SirCmpwn> the changes we're talking about would also ideally allow for proper virtual hosting again
07:51 -!- Eloston [~Eloston@c-76-121-64-112.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
07:51 < Grum> now the real question is; why would you *need* virtualhosting?
07:51 <+SirCmpwn> that's a terrible question and you should feel bad for asking it
07:52 < Grum> not really
07:52 <+SirCmpwn> okay, I'll describe a scenario
07:52 <+SirCmpwn> I don't really know how those hunger games servers work, but I think they'd apply to something like this
07:52 < Grum> its a good question, go explain why it is 'needed'
07:52 < Grum> SirCmpwn: vanilla usecase only.
07:52 <+SirCmpwn> a virtual hosting solution that directs players to a different "hunger games" server for games with random people, but at the same URL (and thus server list entry) every time
07:53 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: vanilla will support plugins soon (haha, soon), don't be silly
07:53 < Grum> i'm waiting :P
07:53 <+SirCmpwn> and this channel isn't about vanilla, anyway, we all design our own things here, so our desires are aligned with that idea
07:53 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: see also: bungeecord
07:54 < Grum> ?
07:54 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: it's a proxy that md_5 made, tens of thousands of users
07:54 <+SirCmpwn> could make good use of these changes
07:54 < Grum> vanilla usecase please
07:55  * dx walks in
07:55 < Grum> i mean, it cannot be THAT hard to come up with one
07:55 <+SirCmpwn> you frustrate me, Grum.
07:55 <+SirCmpwn> virtual hosting wasn't even added for vanilla when it was done the first time
07:55 < dx> oh look, it's this discussion again, where grum can't consider anything that developers or server admins need
07:55 < Grum> dx: i can? just give justification?
07:55 < dx> i'm not in the mood to join in though, sorry
07:55 <+SirCmpwn> dx: maybe if we have this discussion enough times, mojang will care about technical users
07:56 <+SirCmpwn> which I thought would happen when bukkit came on, actually
07:56 <+md_5> what did I do now?
07:56 <+SirCmpwn> md_5: wrote bungeecord
07:56 <+md_5> what are we using it as an argument for?
07:56 <+SirCmpwn> md_5: which hostname/protocol version in server list ping would be useful for
07:56 <+md_5> oh
07:56 <+md_5> yeah
07:57 <+md_5> thats a massive complaint I get
07:57 <+ammar2> vanilla use case pls SirCmpwn
07:57 <+md_5> and I have to reply "use multiple listeners + SRV record"
07:57 <+SirCmpwn> I still have no clue how to actually set up a SRV record
07:57 <+SirCmpwn> I googled for something like 20 minutes and it didn't work when I was done
07:57 <+ammar2> cloudflare makes it ez pz last I checked
07:57 <+md_5> its stupid shit
07:57 <+ammar2> from the nameserver side anyway
07:57 <+md_5> that and lack of protocol version
07:58 < dx> the syntax to add SRV records is very awkward but once you get it right once, just copypaste everywhere
07:58 <+md_5> I have all the code in bungee to support multiple versions
07:58 <+md_5> except for the ping packet
07:58 <+SirCmpwn> md_5: and roughly how many bungeecord users are affected?
07:58 <+md_5> LETS ADD A NEW FIELD TO THE PING TO DISTINGUISH VERSION
07:58 <+md_5> AND MAKE IT ALWAYS 0x01
07:58 <+ammar2> Schrödinger's byte
07:59 <+md_5> SirCmpwn bungee peaks at about 1500 servers and 55,000 minecraft players online globally
07:59 <+SirCmpwn> md_5: last time this discussion was added, I asked Grum to change it from 0x1 to current protocol version, but even such simple changes are out of scope
07:59 <+SirCmpwn> s/added/had/
07:59 <+ammar2> SirCmpwn: http://mcstats.org/plugin/BungeeCord
07:59 <+ammar2> a measly 55k players at peak time
08:00 <+md_5> once you factor in player cycle, thats hundred(s) of thousands of unique players a day
08:00 < Grum> SirCmpwn: where does it use 0x1?
08:00 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: afaik packet 0xFE has that one useless byte in it that's always set to 1
08:00 <+md_5> or 00
08:00 < Grum> seems to be not writing anything when you 'make' a GetInfoPacket (254)
08:00 <+md_5> cant recall which
08:00 <+SirCmpwn> as ammar2 calls it, Schrödinger's byte
08:00 <+md_5> it was added when the format changed
08:00 <+SirCmpwn> might not be there any more, I don't know if anyone here knows
08:01 <+md_5> its there still
08:01 <+SirCmpwn> since we all just pretended that you never did something that stupid and didn't read it
08:01 -!- r04r|away is now known as r04r
08:01 < Grum> erm ... i kinda have to agree that looks really broken O.o
08:01 -!- Yoshi2 [~Yoshi2@xdsl-87-78-26-55.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Bye]
08:02 <+SirCmpwn> md_5: http://b.wiki.vg/1.6#packets:0xfe
08:02 <+SirCmpwn> md_5: maybe not there any more?
08:02 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: and the first few times we mentioned it, that wasn't true? :(
08:02 <+SirCmpwn> I think we even brought it up on the day of the snapshot
08:03 < Grum> it looks weird that it seems half-implemented
08:03 < Grum> hmmm
08:03 <+ammar2> still there https://github.com/Bukkit/mc-dev/blob/master/net/minecraft/server/Packet254GetInfo.java#L13
08:03 < Grum> but its actually not the network protocol version
08:03 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: will you take our advice on how it can be fixed?
08:03 < Grum> nor intended to be used like that
08:04 < Grum> this packet seems to be assymetrical
08:04 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: also, please do a git blame so I know whose name to mutter under my breath when I have problems with it
08:05 < Grum> i thnk you might be just using it wrong
08:05 < Grum> when you send 0x01 you will get extra data back
08:05 < Grum> from which you can get information you normally cant
08:05 <+SirCmpwn> that's how we use it
08:06 < Grum> so the problem is what?
08:06 <+SirCmpwn> but a field that may or may not exist and has no indication of its existence is really stupid and breaks a lot of our packet code
08:06 < Grum> yeah which is why i said its rather 'weird'
08:06 < Grum> its not symetrical
08:06 < Grum> client->server it has to exist
08:06 < Grum> server->client it seems to not have to exist
08:07 <+SirCmpwn> and since you have this stupid little byte here that's not doing anything else, you may as well put the protocol version in it and make a lot of people happy
08:07 <+ammar2> huh? when does the server need to send the client the ping
08:07 <+SirCmpwn> ammar2: you misunderstood him.
08:07 <+ammar2> ok, whats he saying then
08:07 < Grum> typically packets read and write the same way
08:07 < Grum> its not symmetrical like that
08:07 <+ammar2> aah
08:07 <+SirCmpwn> except for player look/position packet
08:07 <+SirCmpwn> which we have also complained about for a couple of years now
08:07 <+ammar2> they fixed that iirc
08:07 < Grum> sigh dont talk about that
08:07 < Grum> god that is horrible
08:07 <+ammar2> or did they
08:08 <+SirCmpwn> they did not
08:08 <+ammar2> SirCmpwn: swapped stance/yaw?
08:08 <+SirCmpwn> the whole "stance" thing is ridiculously stupid
08:08 <+SirCmpwn> ammar2: correct
08:08 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: so, will you take our advice on improving packet 0xFE
08:09 < Grum> nope, it'll break all the things
08:09 <+SirCmpwn> I wouldn't be so sure
08:09 <+SirCmpwn> unless the vanilla codebase is so ridiculously bad that a change here could break things unrelated to pinging servers
08:10 < Grum> it would break all the things currently depending on it
08:10 <+SirCmpwn> otherwise, you should be able to fix it for the future and retain legacy compatibility if you play your cards right
08:10 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: what an insightful statement, that clears it all up
08:10 <+md_5> at the end of the day it comes down to this
08:10 <+md_5> the protocol is shit and it aint been fixed anytime soon
08:10 < Grum> yup
08:10 < Grum> and i dislike both points of it
08:10 <+md_5> despite a channel of 106 capable individuals providing useful feedback and suggestions
08:11 < Grum> chanserv can provide proper feedback? oh god .. SkyNey
08:11 < Grum> *t
08:11 <+SirCmpwn> md_5: even if the whole protocol isn't being rewritten, small changes can be very useful
08:11 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: "/msg ChanServ access #mcdevs list" tells you who the more interesting people are
08:11 <+SirCmpwn> ops, if you need them
08:11 <+md_5> I had a doc of < 15 line changes I wanted
08:12 <+SirCmpwn> I think the biggest problem is that no mojang employee is willing to seriously consider the technical requirements of some of our requests, no matter the simplicity
08:12 <+AndrewPH> garry listens to his community more than you guys, and he's a one-man team.
08:12 <+AndrewPH> and he's not exactly known for being nice
08:12 <+md_5> oh they will listen to us
08:13 <+md_5> lets just make a youtube channel
08:13 <+md_5> and get a million subs
08:13 <+SirCmpwn> the youtube community is obviously the most important part of the community, md_5
08:13 <+md_5> hm
08:13 <+AndrewPH> operation srennaNaeS
08:13 < Grum> AndrewPH: he also caters less than 3.7 million people per dev
08:13 <+md_5> actually appears you only need ~750k subs to get listened to by mojang
08:13 <+AndrewPH> Grum: and that has nothing to do with it behind the scenes, really
08:13 < Grum> AndrewPH: as much as the bullshit you said
08:14 <+SirCmpwn> md_5: don't make the mistake of assuming the developers who write all the code that helps keep the shitty official software working are important to Mojang
08:14 <+AndrewPH> the people don't experience what happens behind the scenes, they experience what you push out :)
08:14 <+SirCmpwn> what was the ratio of vanilla to bukkit servers again? I haven't checked in a while
08:14 <+md_5> not quite sure of your point, indirectly or directly Ive had well over a million people use my software
08:14 <+AndrewPH> In reality he's one man working with C++, and he's not a good C++ dev as far as I've heard, vs a team of proficient java developers.
08:15 < Grum> working on a shitty java codebas
08:15 <+SirCmpwn> maintaining notch's code
08:15 < Grum> i mean..... seriously? O.o
08:15 <+AndrewPH> He was working on a shitty C++ codebase :)
08:15 < Grum> apples and pears
08:15 <+md_5> you have had what
08:15 <+md_5> like a year and a half at mojang
08:15 <+md_5> not quite
08:15 <+AndrewPH> He's had the tougher job and has /handled it/
08:15 < Grum> more like half a year
08:15 <+md_5> a year
08:15 < Grum> bit less actually
08:15 <+ammar2> year
08:15 <+SirCmpwn> the users in this channel could have rewritten minecraft in that time
08:15 < Grum> yeah, give us 106/x times half a year and we'll do it too!
08:16 < Grum> err /3
08:16 <+SirCmpwn> the regulars, that is
08:16 <+md_5> if we were paid a cushy job in a cushy office to work full time we could have rewritten the game
08:16 <+ammar2> http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/bukkit-the-next-chapter.62489/ created feb 28
08:16 <+SirCmpwn> ammar2: 2012, that is
08:16 < Grum> ammar2: yes, and the 'real' work started from when i finally moved to sweden
08:16 <+ammar2> obviously :P
08:16 < Grum> which is just half a year ago
08:17 <+md_5> 6 of us + a year fulltime work    ->> whole new Minecraft
08:17 -!- SpaceManiac [~SpaceMani@r74-192-152-131.gtwncmta01.grtntx.tl.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #mcdevs
08:17 < Grum> md_5: yup
08:17 <+md_5> I daresay you havent achieved anything near to that
08:17 <+SirCmpwn> hell, in the past two months, I rewrote about 5% of SpaceX's core infrastructure\
08:17 <+SirCmpwn> and that's working alone
08:17 < Grum> so right now we're at ... 2 people working on it for 6 months
08:17 <+md_5> 2 people
08:18 <+md_5> EvilSeph is gr8 m8
08:18 < Grum> yes, jeb does jack shit
08:18 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: are you and Dinnerbone the only ones maintaining minecraft?
08:18 < Grum> yes
08:18 <+md_5> no
08:18 <+md_5> evilseph
08:18 <+SirCmpwn> why?
08:18 <+md_5> is fixing all the bugs
08:18 <+SirCmpwn> hire more people
08:18 < Grum> no what SirCmpwn says
08:18 <+ammar2> squashing bugs left and right md_5 ;)
08:18 <+SirCmpwn> mojang is swimming in money
08:18 < Grum> SirCmpwn: which is what i've been saying o.O
08:18 < Grum> since i'm at the office
08:18 < Grum> and i tried before to get 3 people in to do the renderer
08:18 < Grum> which fell flat on its ass
08:18 <+ammar2> Grum 4 mojang president 2013
08:18 < Grum> because unlike you suggest, people actually do not do that much work (except for UMM)
08:19 <+md_5> so
08:19 <+SirCmpwn> UMM?
08:19 <+md_5> what you are saying
08:19 <+md_5> is evilseph doesnt develop Minecraft
08:19 < dexter0> UltraMoogleMan
08:19 < Grum> md_5: almost correct
08:19 <+AndrewPH> Grum: is he supposed to be but doesn't?
08:19 <+md_5> yet he seems to take a ton of credit for the bugs he fixes
08:19 <+SirCmpwn> so Dinnerbone does only what youtubers want
08:19 < Grum> if he fixes a bug we probably fix 20
08:19 <+SirCmpwn> and Grum starts and abandons rewrites
08:19 <+ammar2> md_5: the one bug that had the solution in the jira comment? :D
08:19 < Grum> SirCmpwn: no? O.o
08:19 < Grum> i dont abandon anything
08:19  * md_5 adds to quote base
08:20 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: I thought you'd abandoned lighting rewrite
08:20 <+SirCmpwn> rendering rewrite
08:20 <+SirCmpwn> etc
08:20 < Grum> SirCmpwn: only lighting was shelved because there is no good solution available right now
08:20 <+SirCmpwn> Dinnerbone abandoned lighting rewrite, too
08:20 <+SirCmpwn> or maybe it was just Dinnerbone
08:20 < Grum> yes, because it took too much time
08:20 < Grum> and we had other shit to do
08:20 < Grum> and we couldnt see us figuring it out properly
08:20 <+AndrewPH> Grum: why don't you guys just get a bunch of shit together for a big update for a while, and work on unfucking the protocol in the downtime after that
08:21 < Grum> i mean, we had a 'semi' good system, it was just factor10 slower than the broken 'sortof' ok one right now
08:21 <+SirCmpwn> anyway, the point I think we're all making here is that no one at mojang has done anything to make any developers happy since the bukkit hiring
08:21 < Grum> and GOD that code is horrible, and tainted from 10 directions
08:21 < Grum> SirCmpwn: some things are ongoing
08:21 <+md_5> so
08:21 <+SirCmpwn> rather, you guys seem to just be making developers less happy
08:21 <+md_5> sitting on your arse
08:21 < Grum> but things take time
08:21 <+md_5> yelling ITS BROKE
08:21 < Grum> md_5: no? O.o
08:21 <+md_5> does not help the issue
08:21 < Grum> i'm fixing al lthe things i put my hands on
08:21 <+ammar2> pls rewrite grum, hire your own crew
08:21 < Grum> do you really think that dbone coded ANYTHING of the resource/texture handling?
08:21 <+md_5> every time we speak to you, you just say that the code is shit and we are getting to it eventually
08:22 < Grum> well actually he did, the json parsing part
08:22 < Grum> because we just ran out of time
08:22 <+SirCmpwn> well, and he also discards all of our feedback, md_5
08:22 < Grum> md_5: the code is shit -> yakshaving for all the small tasks
08:22 <+md_5> uh
08:22 <+md_5> then how come I can implement almost every request we have made
08:22 < Grum> and yakshaving ^ 3 for anything larger
08:22 <+md_5> in less than ~15 loines
08:22 <+SirCmpwn> and Dinnerbone hasn't talked to us in months, afaik
08:22 < Grum> md_5: because you give fuck all for compatibility
08:23 <+md_5> and you?
08:23 <+md_5> protocol changes every version
08:23 <+md_5> there is 0 compat there
08:23 < Grum> blame .... dinnerbone
08:23 <+md_5> > resource packets
08:23 <+SirCmpwn> did Grum just play the compatibility card
08:23 <+SirCmpwn> hahaha
08:23 <+md_5> *packs
08:23 <+md_5> not compatible
08:23 < Grum> yes, needed change though
08:23 <+md_5> so, the protocol needs a change
08:23 <+AndrewPH> <Grum> SirCmpwn: i really do not see any benefit in having a multi-version-server
08:23 <+AndrewPH> <Grum> it only justifies 'not updating', prolongs existence of weirdass bugs
08:23 <+SirCmpwn> didn't we spend 15 minutes earlier discussing a super simple change that lets *us* do legacy support for you?
08:23 < Grum> also a MASSIVE change so we've put it all in one patch
08:23 <+md_5> and again playing the compat card is just saying you have no other arguments
08:23 < Grum> SirCmpwn: you dont need legacy support.
08:24 <+AndrewPH> you do not see benefit in backwards compatibility..
08:24 <+SirCmpwn> well we damn well want it
08:24 <+SirCmpwn> and we'll do it for you
08:24 < Grum> md_5: no, but 'backwards compat' in that way means we have to write horrible tools to do conversions
08:24 < Grum> which take a fuckton of time to make
08:24 <+SirCmpwn> we just need a tiny little bit of actual cooperation with mojang
08:24 <+md_5> heck
08:24 <+SirCmpwn> call us up
08:24 <+SirCmpwn> we'll write the bloody tools
08:24 <+md_5> if we gave you a 50 line patch each week
08:24 <+md_5> and you did something with it
08:24 <+md_5> we would be happy
08:25 <+SirCmpwn> we can't really give them patches
08:25 <+md_5> pretty sure you change a lot more than 50 lines an hour
08:25 <+SirCmpwn> obfuscation
08:25 < Grum> nope
08:25 < Grum> a good coder only does like 50 lines/day
08:25 <+md_5> oh jeez, here we go
08:25 <+SirCmpwn> that must have been bait, md_5, don't worry
08:26 < Grum> meh go look up the actual statistics
08:26 < Grum> also inflating 'linecount' is rather trivial :P
08:27 <+md_5> Grum what did you do / where did you work before mojang
08:28 <+SirCmpwn> around the month of may, on one of my open source projects (which I wasn't being paid for), I wrote 6,870 LOC and deleted 3,185 LOC
08:28 <+SirCmpwn> Fun Fact(tm)
08:28 < Grum> yeah, so easy to write new code
08:29 <+AndrewPH> I've done tons of work on a webgame that is comprised of over 500MB of PHP and an equal amount of images. I had to rewrite things that affect every page
08:29 <+md_5> I did a pretty big refactor the other work
08:29 <+md_5> *week
08:29 <+md_5> something like 3k added 3k deleted
08:29 < Grum> so you added 0
08:29 <+SirCmpwn> that code was in assembly and was mostly filesystem drivers
08:29 -!- Cay [~OlofLarss@s83-177-171-150.cust.tele2.se] has joined #mcdevs
08:29 < Grum> SirCmpwn: so inflated linecounts because of assembly; kk
08:29 <+SirCmpwn> okay, halve them, maybe
08:30 <+md_5> no
08:30 <+md_5> too much inflation
08:30 <+md_5> 1/64 should be about right
08:30 <+SirCmpwn> maybe 1/4
08:30 <+SirCmpwn> to do it in C, it'd take probably about 4 times the LoC
08:30 <+SirCmpwn> 4 times less, that is
08:31 < Grum> ok so since 25c we did 4691 insertions and 84091 deletions
08:31 <+SirCmpwn> 25c?
08:31 < Grum> 13w25c
08:31 <+SirCmpwn> also, jesus christ, that ratio is fucked up
08:31 <+md_5> -> reformat from allman style
08:31 < Grum> yeah i deleted all the resourcefiles :)
08:32 < Grum> erm lang files
08:32 <+SirCmpwn> why the hell are we talking about this
08:32 <+SirCmpwn> we're supposed to be complaining that mojang does jack shit about our problems
08:33 < Grum> 26a->25c (that is just the fucking weekend and a day) is 116files/3065 insert/2484 deletions
08:33 <+md_5> but grum
08:33 < Grum> so, we're absolutely doing *nothing* with the code right?
08:33 <+md_5> only 50 lines a day
08:33 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: so you'd like to revise your statement about 50 lines a day
08:33 < Grum> md_5: that should have been 50 lines/week
08:33 <+SirCmpwn> dammit md_5
08:33 <+md_5> mind explaining those changes
08:33 < Grum> of 'actual' code additions
08:33 <+md_5> 116files/3065 insert/2484 deletions                 <--- explain what happened
08:34 < Grum> i fixed up localization
08:34 <+md_5> so
08:34 <+AndrewPH> Grum: nobody's arguing that you're doing literally nothing with the code, we're arguing that you (minecraft team) are doing things primarily in the interest of pleasing youtube stars... or at least, that's the impression I'm getting.
08:34 <+md_5> you added / removed / altered a bunch of TL keys
08:34 < Grum> and some bugfixes
08:34 < Grum> md_5: no
08:34 <+md_5> probably 106 locales  and 10 source files
08:34 < Grum> i actually fixed localization properly so it loads/refreshes from resourcepacks, is incremental, supports 'other namespaces'
08:34 < Grum> and you can add custom languages from resourcepacks
08:35 <+SirCmpwn> damn, the modding API was announced in december?
08:35 <+SirCmpwn> what on earth have you been doing this whole time
08:35 < Grum> of 2008 orso
08:35 <+SirCmpwn> hell, you could have just copied bukkit into vanilla
08:35 < Grum> which would do what good?
08:35 < Grum> would that fix the current horrible sourcebase?
08:35 <+SirCmpwn> no, but it might give you time to give a damn about developers
08:35 < Grum> would that make it 'clean/easy' to do changes without base-edits?
08:36 < Grum> SirCmpwn: giving a damn by breaking everything and making the fucking mess EVEN bigger and thus introduce WAY more yakshaving when you want to do internal changes?
08:36 < Grum> good plan sir, good plan
08:36 < dexter0> Actually, we recently passed the anniversary of the 'API summit'  :P
08:36 < Grum> dexter0: yup
08:36  * SirCmpwn scrolls up and re-reads md_5's comments about getting these things done in patches just fine
08:36 < Grum> i dont like it, but reality is reality, the codebase is not made for anything api-like
08:36 <+md_5> SirCmpwn yeah but I break protocol compaty
08:37 <+SirCmpwn> md_5: well shit, we can't have that
08:37 <+md_5> ideally 1.5 clients will connect to 1.6 servers
08:37 < Grum> you can, but do it all in one go ideally
08:37 <+md_5> #amiright
08:37 <+md_5> and vice versa
08:37 <+ammar2> definetly a no-no, backwards compatibility is the highest priority
08:37 < Grum> md_5: why? O.o
08:37 <+md_5> well you said compatability
08:37 <+SirCmpwn> shit, looks like protocol compatibility already been broken 72 times
08:37 <+SirCmpwn> has already*
08:37 <+md_5> I dont see any other proof of compat
08:37 < Grum> it should be broken for a reason
08:37 < Grum> not because 'it makes your hacky shit easier'
08:37 <+md_5> well
08:37 <+md_5> we have lots of reasons
08:38 <+md_5> and now you resort to calling our work hacky
08:38 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: how about "you already broke it in the upcoming snapshot and there's no real reason left to avoid putting these things in"
08:38 < Grum> give me the changes that are not based around: 'making your hacky shit easier'
08:38 <+SirCmpwn> it's not like you don't break it all the fucking time anyway
08:38 <+md_5> I can assure you that most of our work is not hacky in the slightest
08:38 <+md_5> except when we have to hack around all your bugs and crap
08:38 <+SirCmpwn> no one could've guessed before now that anyone at mojang had any reservations about upping the protocol version
08:38 < Grum> md_5: so it is hacky? :D
08:38 <+SirCmpwn> hell, you've upped the protocol version several times when you didn't even need to!
08:38 <+md_5> SirCmpwn requires full change control
08:38 < Grum> i mean even the edges of my new code get hacky because of the cruft i'm trying to make it work in
08:39 < Grum> SirCmpwn: blame dinner
08:41 <+md_5> 'blame dinner'
08:41 <+md_5> as a software development 'team' you should be working these things out
08:42 <+md_5> not just stepping on eachothers toes, making changing as you feel like it
08:42 <+SirCmpwn> I have no idea why I even do Minecraft software, now that I think about it
08:42 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #mcdevs
08:42 <+SirCmpwn> dealing with Minecraft from a technical standpoint sucks
08:42 < Grum> SirCmpwn: yup
08:42 < Grum> that goes the same from the inside
08:42 <+AndrewPH> dealing with minecraft sucks
08:42 <+SirCmpwn> well, I don't really feel like stopping my software, so I'll just continue without a real reason to do so
08:43 <+AndrewPH> I personally have dropped hosting or playing.
08:43 <+SirCmpwn> I hardly ever play for fun
08:43 <+md_5> so basically what we have gathered from this conversation is that mojangs dev practices suck and they havent advanced since notch first hired jeb
08:44 < Drainedsoul> I thought this was well understood
08:44 < Grum> md_5: erm what?
08:44 < Grum> we've advanced quite some since notch first hired jeb
08:44 <+SirCmpwn> md_5: no, we already knew that. We learned that we can append "and they aren't willing to change that" to it
08:44 < Grum> but not in code sanity
08:45 < Grum> that only really started since dinner/me started hacking on the code
08:45 <+md_5> SirCmpwn I was about to add a nice line about that, couldnt figure out how to phrase it nicely enough though
08:45 < Grum> yeah except that we are actually change it
08:45 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: well would you please kick Dinnerbone's ass for us and get to work on the bloody problems Minecraft has had since alpha?
08:45 <+md_5> <Grum> that only really started since dinner/me started hacking on the code                         <-- but then you still go on to "blame dinner"
08:45 < Grum> yes, because i am not going to take the blame for shit he does
08:45 <+md_5> no one person should be getting the blame
08:46 <+md_5> you are a TEAM
08:46 <+md_5> a development team
08:46 < Grum> except that we aren't
08:46 -!- r04r is now known as r04r|away
08:46 <+md_5> stop thinking like you/he are the god of Minecrafts codebase
08:46 < Grum> i take enough crap, i dont need the crap about code i didn't actually write
08:46 < Grum> i'll own up to the shit i write
08:46 <+SirCmpwn> convince Dinnerbone to talk to us, we'll give him the crap he's due
08:47 < Grum> join #minecraft and talk to him?
08:47 <+md_5> he is in this channel
08:47 <+md_5> ....
08:47 < SinZ> he is in here, he just perma idles
08:47 <+SirCmpwn> he's been here forever, but he hasn't spoken to us in months
08:47 <+ammar2> SinZ: after we started telling him about his crap? :P
08:47 <+md_5> point being
08:48 <+md_5> development team produces bad code / has bad code -> blame development team, not a person in it
08:48 <+md_5> the place I was at had the same thing, network team, linux team, windows team, storage team, ops team etc etc etc
08:48 <+SirCmpwn> let's review how far we (#mcdevs hackers) have come tonight: exactly as far as we've come in the past two years
08:48 <+md_5> when someone takes a tape drive out at the wrong time causing a backup to fail
08:48 <+md_5> the ops team gets blamed
08:48 <+md_5> not the kid who took the drive out
08:48 < Grum> so if someone started bitching and whining about something that someone else did, and you agree with it that it was stupid ... you'd never say: yeah, talk to them
08:49 <+md_5> you address it as a team
08:49 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: you're our only point of contact into Mojang. You take all the shit and we assume you'll re-distribute our shit appropriately
08:49 < Grum> he's in the fucking channel
08:49 <+md_5> what you are saying is mojang has no team structure
08:49 < Grum> stop pretending we're having 1000 people working under 'one interface'
08:49 <+md_5> which is pathetic given that you have total profits over at least half a billion
08:49 < Grum> md_5: we actually do not have that
08:49 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: he doesn't *listen* to the fucking channel. He may as well not be here for all he's done here
08:49 < Grum> SirCmpwn: which is why i said #minecraft
08:50 <+SirCmpwn> that place is a shithole, and I think I'm still banned for doing things like calling it a shithole
08:50 < SinZ> but then there are code muggles listening to our problems
08:50 < Grum> SinZ: so?
08:50 <+SirCmpwn> anyway, the audience is wrong. This is the place for technical discussion.
08:50 < Grum> i have the same problem in this channel
08:50 < SinZ> They will side with shit code because Dinnerbro is a god to them
08:50 <+ammar2> Grum: you are literally the only proper inlet we have towards tech discussion internally in mojang, naturally all the shit gets funelled through you
08:51 < Grum> i'm happy to change things, for the right reasons
08:51 -!- ranie [~rramiso@124.6.182.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
08:51 <+SirCmpwn> we've given you dozens of things to change and a dozen reasons for each change