10:59 < Grum> and making you sign a service contract
10:59 < zutto> ^that
10:59 < Grum> which is sortof the only thing they make money of :p
10:59 < zutto> everything was good when we had contract with canon
11:00 < zutto> but no, xerox stepped in and big guys saw that they were cheaper :p
11:00 < Grum> and you wonder why they deliver a shitty flakey product?
11:00 < Grum> because if they did push out a stable product, no-one would have their service contracts
11:00 < zutto> yeah
11:00 < zutto> but it was just constant pain in the ass
11:00 < Grum> i love how the: 'its cheaper because its crap' flies higher than: 'oh this works but is 50% more expensive'
11:00 < Grum> managers will ALWAYS pick the first one
11:01 < Grum> 'MOAR CHEAP IS BETTAR' .... but not in the long way ;(
11:01 < Grum> s/way/run/
11:01 < zutto> yep
11:02 <+md_5> xerox is nice as a service provider
11:02 <+md_5> just sayin'
11:02 < Grum> obviously, as that is what you pay for
11:02 < Grum> so they better 'make that worth your while'
11:02 <+md_5> well
11:03 <+md_5> when you need a few thousand dollars of printing each day
11:03 < Grum> else someone might actually complain about the shithouses they call printers
11:03  * zutto has eternal hate for xerox!
11:03 <+md_5> its either them or ricoch
11:03 <+md_5> in australia anyway
11:05 < dav1d> wohooo cups runs over https 
11:05 <+md_5> dav1d is dav1d.de your domain?
11:05 < dav1d> no wonder I didn't "http://localhost:631" errored
11:05 < dav1d> md_5: yes
11:05 < dav1d> md_5: why you're asking?
11:05 < dav1d> *are you
11:06 <+md_5> cause I noticed brott had a dav1d.de host
11:06 < dav1d> md_5: yeah :)
11:06 < dav1d> md_5: we finally set a rdns, he uses a znc hosted on my vps
11:07 <+md_5> I run 40-ish something bouncers, mainly on EsperNet
11:07 <+md_5> which I think is nice given I started like 2 months ago
11:07 < dav1d> md_5: yeah seen that
11:08 < dav1d> md_5: I host 4 :P
11:08 < dav1d> but only for friends/nice ppl :P
11:09 < dav1d> LOL
11:09 < dav1d> gcc-gcj fuck you, seriously
11:09 < Calinou> of course
11:09 < Calinou> the GNU weight®
11:09 < dav1d> ==> ERROR: Makepkg was unable to build gcc-gcj.
11:09 < dav1d> ==> Restart building gcc-gcj ? [y/N]
11:09 < dav1d> Calinou: ^
11:09 < dav1d> -.-
11:09 < dav1d> lol
11:09 < dav1d> LOL
11:09 < dav1d> gcc segfaulted
11:09 < dav1d> awesome
11:09 < dav1d> makes it worth it
11:10 < Calinou> harsh linux®
11:10 < dav1d> well pdfshuffler worked and installed in 1min -.-
11:10 < Drainedsoul> when your compiler segfaults it's like the worst feeling in the world
11:10 < dav1d> no the best, if it's gcc
11:10 < dav1d> fuck yeah, I did it!
11:11 < dav1d> (making dmd segfault is relativly easy :( )
11:11 < Drainedsoul> trivial typedefs involving types deduced from expressions involving variadic parameter packs segfault GCC, it's annoying
11:11 < dav1d> Drainedsoul: submitted a bugreport?
11:11 < dav1d> nothing should crash a compiler
11:11 < dav1d> especially segfault
11:12 < Drainedsoul> yeah it's annoying, but no I didn't submit a bug report, I just kludged a workaround and moved on
11:13 < Drainedsoul> but yeah I have the dump and stuff saved
11:13 < Drainedsoul> typedef decltype(func(std::forward<Args>(args)...)) return_type;
11:13 < Drainedsoul> that line, GCC does not like
11:16 < dav1d> g++ :P
11:16 < dav1d> gcc forwards it to the cpp backend
11:16 < Drainedsoul> I have the bad habit of calling the whole toolchain GCC
11:16 < dav1d> yeah, I force myself to not do it
11:16 < dav1d> ^^
11:17 <+md_5> just use clang
11:17 < dav1d> well gcc isn't wrong, gcc forwards it to the correct backend
11:17 <+md_5> problem solved
11:17 < dav1d> md_5: why should clang be better?
11:17 < dav1d> (except error messages)
11:17 < Drainedsoul> I want to use Clang super badly, but I can't find a single doc that talks about Clang on Windows without saying it can't do a bunch of things
11:17 < dav1d> gcc even optimises a tiny bit better
11:17 < Drainedsoul> with those things ranging from compiling 64-bit binaries (wut) to linking against certain libraries
11:17 <+md_5> clang will get there
11:17 < dav1d> Drainedsoul: llvm on windows hasn't full support, mainly exceptions
11:18 < dav1d> llvm on windows has also no big sponsors
11:18 < Drainedsoul> yeah, I want a compiler I can use between platforms, since I usually build on Linux and Windows
11:18 < dav1d> e.g. apple invested a lot into llvm but only for well, not for windows
11:18 < dav1d> nvidia, too, iirc
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11:19 < dav1d> the shader compiler uses llvm, well that's a special case though
11:20 < Drainedsoul> I really don't understand how Microsoft has so much money but can't make a half decent C++ compiler
11:20 <+md_5> >implying msvc is bad
11:20 < dav1d> works for microsoft (tm)
11:20  * md_5 runs
11:21 < Calinou> msvc is fast, compiles fast
11:21 < Calinou> but sucks
11:21 < Drainedsoul> the last time I used MSVC it couldn't parse a catch all block inside a variadic template function, it confused the ... in catch (...) with a parameter pack expansion
11:21 < Drainedsoul> I abandoned ship at once
11:22 < Drainedsoul> I'd only use MSVC if I needed to write a CLR module with a lot of C API interop
11:22 < Drainedsoul> because C++/CLI is pretty cool
11:24 < Calinou> ITT: EVERYTHING SUCKS!!!
11:24 < dav1d> gtg cya!
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12:14 < eddyb> dav1d: clang has better LTO
12:14 < eddyb> and maybe vectorization, but I'm not sure
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14:28 < dav1d> eddyb: do you think that it has a better LTO or do you know that
14:28 < eddyb> I know for sure
14:28 < dav1d> in general clang is a tiny bit slower than gcc
14:29 < eddyb> and I also know why... the llvm bytecode is still manipulable, even in intermediary "object files"
14:30 < dx> llvm seems to be fun
14:30 < dav1d> llvm is fun
14:31 < dav1d> (from what I understand xD)
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18:42 < ffmdr> does anyone know what is causing player screen to shake when poisoned?
18:42 -!- r04r|away is now known as r04r
18:43 < ffmdr> could it be other internal potion not visible in inventory?
18:44 < shoghicp> ffmdr: damage taken
18:44 < ffmdr> shoghicp: so negative health updates?
18:45 < shoghicp> yes
18:45 < shoghicp> but
18:45 < shoghicp> I think that is sent
18:45 < shoghicp> (the shaking)
18:45 < shoghicp> over an entity status
18:46 < ffmdr> hmm
18:46 < ffmdr> status = ENTITY_HURT
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19:05 < ffmdr> can't track this
19:06 < ffmdr> tracked to EntityLiving#attackEntityFrom so far
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19:23 < ffmdr> shoghicp: any ideas?
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19:25 < shoghicp> ffmdr: I you want Bukkit support, you should go to a bukkit-related channel
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19:25 < ffmdr> I am searching for camera shaking
19:26 < ffmdr> in client
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19:35 < ffmdr> meh
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19:39 <+pdelvo> lol
19:39 <+pdelvo> who is pdelvo-??
19:40 <+pdelvo> lol. my bouncer is working again
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19:59 <+SirCmpwn> health update packet causes the screen shaking
19:59 <+SirCmpwn> whenever player health is reduced
19:59 <+SirCmpwn> ffmdr: 
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20:29 < timeshifter> anyone know a ballpark estimate of how long the vanilla worldgen takes to create each chunk, on average?
20:29 < timeshifter> an entire vertical chunk, not just a 16^3 piece
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20:59 < TRocket_> timeshifter: what spec machine are we looking at? my laptop with OC'd i5 and 500MB/s RW ssd takes about 1/8 of a friends non-ssd gaming pc with better cpu...
20:59 < TRocket_> to generate an entire world that is
21:00 < timeshifter> lol
21:00 < timeshifter> 3.2ghz phenom 2, 10k hdd
21:00 < timeshifter> ssd wasn't in the budget :(
21:02 < timeshifter> i'm just looking for a point of comparison for my algorithm
21:02 < timeshifter> which is currently generating a 16x256x16 area in ~0.047s
21:04 < TRocket_> could you plug your algorithm into bukkit (multiverse?) as a world generator and compare the times for an entire world
21:05 < timeshifter> that's the plan
21:05 < timeshifter> lol
21:05 < timeshifter> i still need to dive in to the whole "accomplishing that" aspect
21:05 < dav1d> I generate my chunks in 3ms o/
21:05 < timeshifter> \o
21:05 < dav1d> (no terrain gen)
21:06 < dav1d> terrain → vertices
21:06 < timeshifter> so.. you *draw* your chunks in 3ms?
21:06 < dav1d> no
21:06 < dav1d> drawing is faster
21:06 < dav1d> I draw 441 chunks in ~5ms
21:06 < dav1d> depending on terrain and gpu
21:07 < dav1d> but I need ~3ms to generate out of terrain (blocks) vertices, which can be drawn
21:07 < dav1d> 3ms != in a desert
21:07 < dav1d> having that atm in jungles
21:09 < TRocket_> timeshifter: maybe fork cleanroom gen https://github.com/nvx/CleanroomGenerator ?
21:09 < TRocket_> and "modify"(break) it
21:10 < timeshifter> but i dun wanna break anything, lol
21:10 < timeshifter> it's not a huge deal, i'm just curious what the vanilla algo performs like
21:11 < timeshifter> since that's what i'm up against, basically
21:11 < TRocket_> yeah
21:11 < TRocket_> mcdevs should probably build a set of benchmark standard utillities
21:12 < timeshifter> that'd be nice
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21:21 <+SirCmpwn> I remember running performance tests on my flatland generator
21:21 <+SirCmpwn> which supports the same stuff as vanilla with custom generator strings
21:22 <+SirCmpwn> I think it was something like a hundred million chunks generated in 4, 5 seconds
21:22 < dav1d> well, generating flatland chunks is extremly easy and basically only memcpy
21:23 < dav1d> generate one, memcpy around
21:24 < dav1d> so you benchmark memcpy..
21:25 <+SirCmpwn> actually, that's a great idea
21:25 <+SirCmpwn> why the hell do I actually generate each one seperately
21:25 < Drainedsoul> which is usually a compiler intrinsic
21:26 < dav1d> Drainedsoul: it still has to be done
21:27 < dav1d> SirCmpwn: oh :D, you don't copy it around?^^
21:27 < dav1d> but make sure you keep the original chunk private
21:27 <+SirCmpwn> indeed
21:27 <+SirCmpwn> maybe I was planning for the future when I might be generating structures like villages
21:27 <+SirCmpwn> someone submitted a really shitty pull request once that added village "support" to C.N flatland
21:28 < Drainedsoul> I'm not saying that it doesn't have to be done, I'm saying that it's inline highly optimized assembly, which makes the "performance" even more trivial
21:28 < dav1d> Drainedsoul: have you seen the glibc implementationß
21:28 < dav1d> *?
21:28 < dav1d> handcrafted asm for basically every sse version
21:28 <+SirCmpwn> https://github.com/SirCmpwn/Craft.Net/pull/164
21:28 < dav1d> SirCmpwn: you can still use the original chunk to populate the world, then put the villages ontop
21:29 < Drainedsoul> I haven't, but I've seen the source for the glibc implementation of strlen
21:29 <+SirCmpwn> well, vanilla flatland supports more than just villages now, dav1d
21:29 < dav1d> SirCmpwn: makes no difference
21:29 <+SirCmpwn> they also support rivers, trees, mineshafts, etc
21:29 < dav1d> SirCmpwn: copy, then change
21:29  * SirCmpwn shrugs
21:29 < dav1d> you replace blocks feom the template
21:29 < dav1d> *from
21:29 <+SirCmpwn> at that point, what kind of performance gain are you even really getting?
21:29 < dav1d> faster than generating structures, then generating blocks aorund
21:30 < dav1d> it's also easier
21:30 < dav1d> you don't have to keep track "is this inside or outside the mineshaft"
21:31 <+SirCmpwn> I think C.N might be my most committed-to repository
21:31 <+SirCmpwn> 606 commits
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21:32 <+SirCmpwn> next best is KnightOS, 362
21:34 < dav1d> 827commits BraLa o/
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22:04 <+SirCmpwn> I've been working with another KnightOS contributor to decide on a versioning scheme based on git
22:05 <+SirCmpwn> our version numbers will be "tag+ahead/shorthash" - git tag, commits ahead of tag, and the first 8 characters of the commit hash
22:05 <+SirCmpwn> with a * at the end for a dirty working directory
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22:06 <+SirCmpwn> I think that'll result in more frequent commits to ensure that we have an idea of what changes might have caused someone's problems
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02:20 < Seegee> Hey there
02:21 < Seegee> so I have a quick qquestion about multicraft
02:21 < Seegee> and other minecraft panles
02:21 < Seegee> can a user not just upload a malacious jar file...?
02:21 <+sadimusi> most of them don't allow custom jar files anymore
02:22 <+sadimusi> but I guess there are still a few with an upload option and no proper multi-user setup
02:23 < Seegee> Do they even "verify" the jar?
02:23 < Seegee> At all?
02:23 <+sadimusi> how would you even do that?
02:23 <+sadimusi> I mean the whole point is to upload modified jars
02:24 < Seegee> How would you exploit it? Create a jar that opens a backconnection to another server
02:25 < Seegee> And then use netcat to remotely access that server that the minecraft server is hosted on
02:25 <+sadimusi> no, how you would verify it
02:25 < Seegee> Well you cant
02:25 < Seegee> Thats what I thought...
02:25 <+sadimusi> exploiting it is easy as long as all servers run as the same user
02:25 < Seegee> I was just wondering if they did... at all...
02:26 <+sadimusi> as I said, most of them only allow preinstalled vanilla and bukkit jars
02:26 <+sadimusi> but you could probably still add a malicious plugin
02:26 < Seegee> Well you would need some sort of exploit in bukkit to do that most likley
02:27 <+sadimusi> why? you can use everything java offers
02:27 < Seegee> You can access the filesystem through a bukkit plugin?
02:27 < Seegee> ...
02:27 <+sadimusi> sure
02:27 <+sadimusi> I've seen some hosters only providing preinstalled plugins as well
02:28 <+sadimusi> but if you hid your exploit in a useful plugin you could probably get it approved
02:28 < Seegee> I have been wondering about this for a REALLY long time...
02:28 <+sadimusi> the only sensible option really is to use a user per server, but I'm not sure how many of the hosters use that
02:28 <+sadimusi> the one I used to host on certainly didn't
02:28 < Seegee> I think most hosts run all the servers as one user
02:29 < Seegee> I mean... I am trying to start my own hosting company using TCAdmin, and it makes me scared how insecure some of this stuff looks.
02:30 <+sadimusi> would you only host minecraft?
02:30 < Seegee> Well no
02:30 < Seegee> I got lots of source games setup
02:30 < Seegee> Those worry me even more... I think users can edit the startup scripts of the games
02:31 <+sadimusi> and TCA runs everything as the same user? that's insane!
02:31 < Seegee> yea I know
02:31 < Seegee> I think there is an option to run each server as its own user
02:32 <+sadimusi> you should certainly use that
02:32 < Seegee> I should... 
02:32 < Seegee> What does multicraft do
02:32 < Seegee> Run them as the same user?
02:32 <+sadimusi> I'm not familiar with multicraft
02:33 <+AndrewPH> sadimusi: the host i use for my vps provides minecraft hosting. they provision one vps per server.
02:33 <+sadimusi> "Multicraft allows every server to be run as its own system user so the server processes can't interfere with each other."
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02:34 < Seegee> +AndrewPH, doesn't seem too efficient...
02:34 < Seegee> But a good solution
02:34 <+sadimusi> of course virtualization would be an option, but I guess it's too expensive
02:34 <+AndrewPH> Seegee: they turn a profit so I'm guessing it works
02:35 < Seegee> What happens when someone uploads a plugin onto my server
02:35 < Seegee> with this in it
02:35 < Seegee> Runtime.getRuntime().exec("rm -rf ../);  
02:36 <+sadimusi> if bukkit runs under their user, nothing
02:36 < Seegee> But TCA default is running as same user xD
02:36 <+sadimusi> then all your servers are gone :)
02:37 <+sadimusi> there are probably a few sandboxing options for java, but that's more of a band-aid fix
02:37 < Seegee> Runtime.getRuntime().exec("wget local root exploit");  
02:39 <+sadimusi> use a stable OS and you should be fine
02:39 <+sadimusi> there are lots of web hosting companies out there allowing you to ssh into their servers
02:40 < Seegee> Oh I know that
02:40 <+sadimusi> using the java security manager to disable Runtime.exec might still be a good idea
02:40 < Seegee> Probbaly...
02:41 <+sadimusi> there are certainly other attack vectors, but this one would probably get used by script kiddies the most
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03:04 <+SirCmpwn> sadimusi: status of burger updates?
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03:05 <+sadimusi> still no progress
03:05 <+sadimusi> when will 1.6 come out?
03:05 <+SirCmpwn> mojang has said some things that make me think "soon"
03:06 <+SirCmpwn> example: https://twitter.com/Dinnerbone/status/348889854727307268
03:07 <+ammar2> soon ™
03:08 <+SirCmpwn> ammar2: Mojang Time, unlike Valve Time, is usually about two weeks before they really should have released
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03:31 < shoghicp> SirCmpwn: and that law is stronger in Minecraft: Pocket Edition
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19:22 < TkTech> Prf_Jakob: There's an option now to show just the commit summary, as request in your ticket #2
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19:23 <+Prf_Jakob> TkTech: wooohoo!
19:24 < TkTech> Prf_Jakob: There was something you wanted me to add that required polling wasn't there?
19:24 < TkTech> Prf_Jakob: Celery (background workers) are implemented and live (used for password reset emails), so it's a possibility now on a limited basis.
19:25 <+Prf_Jakob> Hmm I can't remember
19:26 <+Prf_Jakob> TkTech: where is the option btw?
19:26 <+Prf_Jakob> TkTech: I can't find it
19:26 < TkTech> Prf_Jakob: On the hook page, last on the list
19:26 < TkTech> Prf_Jakob: "Title Only"
19:26 <+Prf_Jakob> ah, thanks
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19:30 <+Prf_Jakob> TkTech: are you going to do IRC side channel config=?
19:32 < TkTech> Prf_Jakob: Absolutely, I have so much I want to refactor and so little time
19:33 < TkTech> Prf_Jakob: If you look at Utopia (the IRC framework) it's been completely rewritten into a nice, even based form.
19:33 < TkTech> *event
19:33 < TkTech> I just haven't had time to move the notifico.bots project over to it
19:33 < TkTech> There's also other stuff in dev which took a very long time.
19:34 < TkTech> Hooks now are custom Lua blocks, which are dispatched over celery and run in sandboxed background workers
19:34 < TkTech> So you can do pretty much anything with them
19:34 <+Prf_Jakob> cool cool
19:34 <+Prf_Jakob> Lua?
19:35 < TkTech> "Hooks" in the code are now "Sources" which advertise a list of events ("New Commit", "New Tag Commit", "Build Failed") and each of those can have a block added to it.
19:35 < TkTech> Aye, lua, easiest to sandbox and integrate with python.
19:35 < TkTech> I tried a bunch of different approaches like a basic template engine like Jinja2 or Mako
19:36 < TkTech> But very few offer sandboxing, and none of the ones that do (like Jinja2) offered real sandboxing (TTL, resource caps (CPU, Mem, stack, handles))
19:36 < TkTech> Lua lets me do some cool things in the future too, like allowing HTTP requests in your hook handler.
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19:37 <+Prf_Jakob> TkTech: cool coo
19:37 <+Prf_Jakob> cool*
19:38 < TkTech> And of course, everything is half-finished or broken.
19:38 < Calinou> just like ubuntu
19:38 < TkTech> Toss up between paying the bills or working on toys.
19:38 < Calinou> :trollface:
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19:53 < InfinitelyOscill> Heya..
19:54 < InfinitelyOscill> Is redstone logic handled serverside?
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19:54 < dexter0> yes
19:54 < InfinitelyOscill> I'm thinking about making a custom server.. but see no packets for redstone, while logic for it is all over the client and server jars.
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19:56 < InfinitelyOscill> Any explanation for that..?
19:56 < Fador_> ..you just change the blocks and the metadata
19:56 < Fador_> easy as that ;)
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19:56 < dexter0> I don't look at decompiled mine craft code.  If I had to guess, it would be so that the client can simulate it as well while it waits for the server to provide the "truth".
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19:57 < dexter0> common technique used to account for latency in networked games.
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19:58 < qwebirc705644> My computer likes being a bitch.
19:58 < qwebirc705644> I'm InfinitelyOscill..
19:59 < qwebirc705644> Did I miss anything?
19:59 < qwebirc705644> My thing overheats.
19:59 < dexter0> no
19:59 < dexter0> what was the last message you saw?
20:00 < qwebirc705644> Um, it was my message
20:00 < qwebirc705644> So.. HOW is redstone implemented serverside without packets?
20:00 < qwebirc705644> "Any explanations..?"
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20:00 < dexter0> Fador_: ..you just change the blocks and the metadata
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20:01 < dexter0> that's how
20:01 <+Fador> yeah, as I said, no special packets required because you can do it all with those packets =)
20:02 < InfinitelyOscill> I see..
20:02 < InfinitelyOscill> So the logic is done clientside, and the world is just updated serverside.
20:02 <+Fador> like putting down a redstone torch next to a wire would change the metadata of the wire
20:03 < InfinitelyOscill> And if I place a redstone down, next to a torch in your eahmm
20:03 < InfinitelyOscill> hmm
20:03 <+Fador> I don't think the client does any redstone logic on its own
20:03 < dexter0> if it does, it would just be for latency compensation.
20:03 < InfinitelyOscill> O<O
20:03 < InfinitelyOscill> ..
20:03 < InfinitelyOscill> So the logic is server-side
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20:04 < dexter0> the server implements the redstone logic
20:05 < TkTech> Rule 1. Never trust the client.
20:07 < InfinitelyOscill> I assumed it as it was in the client-side code.
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20:09 < InfinitelyOscill> I can't read obfuscated code well. This will be a time to learn :P
20:09 < InfinitelyOscill> afk
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20:53 < Drainedsoul> I think we can generalize "Never trust the client" to "don't trust systems you don't control"
20:53 < Yoshi2|> I support that
20:54 < Yoshi2|> I don't think you as a client should trust the server too much either
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21:21 < InfinitelyOscill> Ello again
21:22 < TRocket> hi
21:23 < InfinitelyOscill> Where can I find a snippet for redstone handling.. psuedo, anything, so I can get an understanding
21:24 <+SirCmpwn> afaik no third party servers (except for bukkit) support redstone
21:24 <+SirCmpwn> no, spout has basic (and incorrect) support
21:25  * InfinitelyOscill sighs
21:25 < InfinitelyOscill> Naturally.
21:25 < InfinitelyOscill> If it COULD be implemented..
21:25 <+SirCmpwn> if it could be implemented what
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21:36 < Yoshi2> it can be implemented, it's just a matter of "Do I want to implement it RIGHT NOW?"
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21:38 < InfinitelyOscill> This computer..
21:39 < Yoshi2> InfinitelyOscill: redstone can be implemented, it is just a matter of "Do I want to implement it right now?"
21:39 < InfinitelyOscill> Hmm
21:40 < InfinitelyOscill> Looking closely at their code..
21:40 < InfinitelyOscill> it appears it is reversed from the original server
21:40 < InfinitelyOscill> more like applied..
21:41 < Yoshi2> I do suggest holding off the idea of redstone until your server supports interaction/functions for blocks
21:42 < InfinitelyOscill> I know, I am not implementin it.
21:42 < InfinitelyOscill> I am like.. hmm.. just looking to look??
21:42 < InfinitelyOscill> :P
21:45 < InfinitelyOscill> http://pastebin.com/VVNtm1JJ http://pastebin.com/HNbv08fe
21:45 < InfinitelyOscill> Compare those.
21:48 < InfinitelyOscill> A rewrite essentially.
21:48 < Yoshi2> one uses an automatically reverse-engineered version of the other code as the base
21:49 < InfinitelyOscill> Doesn't look like a base, though since we only know what is in  the code
21:49 < InfinitelyOscill> Taking the classes from MC itself is the best idea.
21:49 < InfinitelyOscill> Until we know more about the mechanics to make the code unique.
21:49 < InfinitelyOscill> Am I right?
21:50 < Yoshi2> it is definitely using the reverse-engineered code of minecraft as a base
21:50 < InfinitelyOscill> Yep.
21:50 < InfinitelyOscill> I told ya.
21:50 < Yoshi2> look further down, on line 105
21:50 < Yoshi2> func_82534_e
21:50 < InfinitelyOscill> Yep..
21:51 < InfinitelyOscill> Line 114  in Bukkit code..
21:51 < InfinitelyOscill> Is the same.. essentially.
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21:52 < InfinitelyOscill> I got the decompiled code of the 1.5.2 client and server
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21:52 < InfinitelyOscill> The Bukkit code is simply a rename with sauce on top, but with our knowledge all we can do.. are renames.
21:52 < ryan-c> Does anyone know if there is a way to disable protocol encryption on a minecraft server? I would like to try building a bandwidth saving proxy that compresses the connection.
21:53 < InfinitelyOscill> Ryan, you may have to change the handshake all together.
21:53 < InfinitelyOscill> And it'll be insecure and a LOT of rewriting..
21:53 < InfinitelyOscill> Why not try compressing the encryption packets itself.
21:53 < InfinitelyOscill> For example,
21:54 < ryan-c> InfinitelyOscill: Compressing encrypted data isn't possible.
21:54 < InfinitelyOscill> M mistake
21:54 < InfinitelyOscill> I mean like...
21:54 < InfinitelyOscill> Compress the packet after construction.
21:54 < InfinitelyOscill> send it and then deflate it on the other end
21:54 < ryan-c> That would require a server mod, right?
21:55 < InfinitelyOscill> Yup
21:55 < InfinitelyOscill> And a client one I believe.
21:55 < InfinitelyOscill> Handshake packet made -> Compressed -> Sent <- Recieved <- Decompress <- Process
21:55 < ryan-c> Has someone written code that will man-in-the-middle the handshake to get at the plaintext?
21:55 < InfinitelyOscill> Hmm..
21:55 < ryan-c> From my reading of the protocol encryption this should be possible
21:56 < InfinitelyOscill> You'll have to have 3 servers involved..
21:56 < ryan-c> right, the minecraft server, and two proxies
21:56 < InfinitelyOscill> Yep
21:56 < InfinitelyOscill> One from you, the official server, a client.
21:57 < InfinitelyOscill> So you can't MITM..
21:57 < InfinitelyOscill> LOL, the encryption code is even out in the open.
21:57 < ryan-c> http://www.wiki.vg/Protocol_Encryption
21:57 < InfinitelyOscill> We have the source.
21:57 < InfinitelyOscill> You can't skip the rsa.
21:57 < ryan-c> oh, you said it *is*
21:57 < Yoshi2> you can try to mitm the server, but you will be limited to accounts which you have access to
21:57 < InfinitelyOscill> Wait
21:57 < ryan-c> I can intercept the RSA
21:57 < InfinitelyOscill> I know 
21:57 < InfinitelyOscill> lol
21:57 < InfinitelyOscill> I said wait for a reason
21:58 < InfinitelyOscill> For example, Habbo mmo servers (Habbo has to get re'ed, cracked swfs, protocol, custom sending, packets... hard shit.) can be MITMed.
21:59 < ryan-c> What I want to set up is [server on moderate bandwidth connection] <-> [server proxy] <-> [internet] <-> [client proxy] <-> [client], where client proxy is on a higher bandwidth connection.
21:59 < InfinitelyOscill> Hmm...
21:59 < Yoshi2> MITM in Minecraft with the new authentication method isn't as useful as it used to be
21:59 < ryan-c> a quick skim of the protocol specs seem to indicated that the traffic would compress well
21:59 < InfinitelyOscill> MITM is essentially unusable for cracked.
22:00 < InfinitelyOscill> as it's client server
22:00 < InfinitelyOscill> unless a person is evil
22:00 < ryan-c> I don't have any particular interest in running a cracked server.
22:00 < InfinitelyOscill> Hmm
22:00 < InfinitelyOscill> I see.
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22:00 < InfinitelyOscill> You still need 3 points for a mitm.
22:00 < ryan-c> yeah, but that's fine
22:01 < InfinitelyOscill> Why not just compress the outgoing traffic from the minecraft server, as it goes out
22:01 < InfinitelyOscill> Like, no modding needed.. but deflation is a must
22:01 < Yoshi2> encrypted traffic compresses horribly
22:01 < ryan-c> because it's encrypted which prevents it from being compressed
22:01 < InfinitelyOscill> Ah
22:01 < Yoshi2> AES creates very random data
22:01 < ryan-c> compression works by optimizing on patterns
22:01 < ryan-c> encrypted data has no patterns
22:02 < InfinitelyOscill> Why not compress THEN encrypt
22:02 < ryan-c> well, unless the encyption is weak
22:02 < InfinitelyOscill> Wait stupid idea there.
22:02 < Yoshi2> InfinitelyOscill: now we're back at the start ;)
22:02 < InfinitelyOscill> Lol
22:02 < Yoshi2> compressing before encrypting requires a server mod again
22:02 < InfinitelyOscill> I know
22:02 < InfinitelyOscill> I said stupid idea
22:02 <+SirCmpwn> ryan-c: don't bother with what you're trying to do
22:02 < InfinitelyOscill> xD
22:02 < ryan-c> InfinitelyOscill: It would be easier for me to code an MitM compressing proxy than it would for me to make a mod that does compression within the client and server.
22:03 < InfinitelyOscill> Ryan
22:03 < InfinitelyOscill> MITM wont work
22:03 <+SirCmpwn> compressing encrypted data -> stupid
22:03 < InfinitelyOscill> unless there is a 3rd party
22:03 <+SirCmpwn> compressing plaintext -> introduces vulnerability
22:03 < ryan-c> SirCmpwn: Yes, I know.
22:03 < InfinitelyOscill> And the minecraft servers..
22:03 < InfinitelyOscill> Dont have an implement for a 3rd party
22:04 < InfinitelyOscill> I haven't made a server at all
22:04 < InfinitelyOscill> I am an amateaur in things like networking packets.. well.. implementing them.. I can understand it
22:04 < InfinitelyOscill> But not implement it in code that well
22:04 < ryan-c> SirCmpwn: I'm aware of the issues of compression plaintext - I've written exploits against toy implementations.
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22:04 < InfinitelyOscill> Hmm...
22:05 < InfinitelyOscill> Ryan to remove the handshake
22:05 < InfinitelyOscill> would require rewriting client and server
22:05 < Yoshi2> ah, you can create a proxy without needing a servermod
22:05 < InfinitelyOscill> handshake and encryption classes.
22:05 < InfinitelyOscill> He wants a compressed proxy, Yoshi.
22:06 < Yoshi2> that is also possible
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22:06 < ryan-c> SirCmpwn: 1) I don't care if someone can decrypt my minecraft traffic and 2) The effective exploits against compress-then-encrypt require the attacker to be able to use the client as an encryption oracle which doesn't work on many platforms other than web browsers.
22:06 < InfinitelyOscill> And compression needs deflation on both sides.
22:06 < InfinitelyOscill> So yay
22:06 < InfinitelyOscill> My idea is good there, #2
22:06 < InfinitelyOscill> But
22:06 < InfinitelyOscill> It needs mods.
22:06 <+SirCmpwn> ryan-c: there are more exploits than CRIME, which is what I think you're referring to
22:07 <+SirCmpwn> but according to 1, it doesn't matter
22:07 < InfinitelyOscill> Which require.. rewriting the handshake.
22:07 < ryan-c> SirCmpwn: Besides generic traffic analysis attacks?
22:07 < InfinitelyOscill> But we're talking official minecraft.
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22:07 < Yoshi2> we set the server to offline mode so the proxy can connect to the server as every user who connects to the proxy
22:07 < InfinitelyOscill> Not cracked, the  client verifies with the mc serer
22:07 < InfinitelyOscill> If it was offline it'd be detected by the mc servers
22:08 < InfinitelyOscill> which offlinemode = cracked
22:08 < Yoshi2> the proxy handles all authentication with the users, so there are no problems with users faking other users
22:08 < InfinitelyOscill> The mc servers would know because of an HTTP Post sent..
22:08 < InfinitelyOscill> As I said.
22:08 < ryan-c> so, what i was going to do is implement a proxy that presents it's own public key instead of the server's public key, and re-encrypts everything
22:08 < InfinitelyOscill> For the encryption to work, a key is recieved from the minecraft servers..
22:08 <+SirCmpwn> ryan-c: I'm at work, I don't have enough time to produce a well-researched set of vulnerabilities for something that doesn't matter anyway
22:08 <+SirCmpwn> SMProxy does exactly that, fyi
22:09 <+SirCmpwn> your proxy has to handle authentication for it to work, though
22:09 < InfinitelyOscill> owait
22:09 < InfinitelyOscill> doesnt get it from mc
22:09 < ryan-c> SirCmpwn: SMProxy looks like what I want as a starting point.
22:10 < InfinitelyOscill> If you wanna be official with the servers.. non-cracked.. you can't compress the data
22:10 <+SirCmpwn> ryan-c: you can write plugins for SMProxy that may suit your needs
22:10 < InfinitelyOscill> Using offline mode could work, but I cba to think
22:10 < Yoshi2> technically, there is no such thing as a "cracked" server
22:11 < ryan-c> I'll have a read of the SMProxy code.
22:11 <+SirCmpwn> InfinitelyOscill: look into how SMProxy handles authentication
22:11 < InfinitelyOscill> Cracked meaning not verifying with minecraft.
22:11 < InfinitelyOscill> SirCmpwn, I cba. xD
22:11 <+SirCmpwn> then don't make uninformed statements.
22:11 < InfinitelyOscill> I'm thinking about making a mc server protocol implementation..
22:11 < InfinitelyOscill> [16:10] <InfinitelyOscill> Using offline mode could work, but I cba to think
22:11 < InfinitelyOscill> >cba to think<
22:12 <+SirCmpwn> why make your own, there are already plenty and it's tedious work
22:12 < InfinitelyOscill> I like doing it.
22:12 < InfinitelyOscill> It makes me get better..
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22:12 < ryan-c> SirCmpwn: so, does SMProxy use a static account to authenticate with the minecraft auth servers?
22:12 < InfinitelyOscill> I learn by example.
22:12 <+SirCmpwn> don't learn from minecraft, please
22:12 < InfinitelyOscill> Nono
22:12 < InfinitelyOscill> I mean like
22:12 <+SirCmpwn> ryan-c: SMProxy has two different kinds of authentication, I suppose
22:12 < InfinitelyOscill> The networking
22:13 < InfinitelyOscill> I like the  simple protocol of minecraft
22:13 <+SirCmpwn> ryan-c: if you're running a server behind SMProxy, you can switch it to offline mode and have SMProxy authenticate clients for you (from the server's point of view)
22:13 < InfinitelyOscill> I know java.
22:13 <+SirCmpwn> InfinitelyOscill: yes, don't bloody well use Minecraft to learn
22:13 < Yoshi2> the minecraft protocol is far from simple
22:13 < InfinitelyOscill> I don't=,=
22:13 < Yoshi2> classic minecraft was simple
22:13 <+SirCmpwn> ryan-c: SMProxy also has authentication from a client's perspective, and can draw creds from the lastlogin file or whatever you specify when you start it up
22:13 < InfinitelyOscill> Minecraft is a baby compared to it.
22:13 <+SirCmpwn> ryan-c: I was referring to the former
22:13 < InfinitelyOscill> Yoshi, look at Habbo protocol.
22:14 <+SirCmpwn> InfinitelyOscill: do you know anything other than java
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22:14 < InfinitelyOscill> Hmm
22:14 < InfinitelyOscill> Some C#
22:15 < InfinitelyOscill> Some python (forgot all of it xD)
22:15 < InfinitelyOscill> PHP, medium
22:15 <+SirCmpwn> ryan-c: look into how SMProxy behaves when given --authenticate-clients
22:15 < InfinitelyOscill> Bits and pieces..
22:15 < InfinitelyOscill> I learn coding by looking at code
22:15 < InfinitelyOscill> For example
22:15 < InfinitelyOscill> I didn't get the metadata thing
22:15 < InfinitelyOscill> until I saw psuedo-code
22:15 <+SirCmpwn> InfinitelyOscill: if you learn from Minecraft, you will learn bad things
22:15 < InfinitelyOscill> and I put things I learn  in practice.
22:15 <+SirCmpwn> InfinitelyOscill: write an IRC bot or something
22:16 < InfinitelyOscill> Sir, I've tried that alread
22:16 < InfinitelyOscill> y
22:16 <+SirCmpwn> hell, write an ircd
22:16 <+SirCmpwn> but don't write minecraft software as a learning experience
22:16 < InfinitelyOscill> tried that, stopped at a hello world
22:16 < InfinitelyOscill> I wanna write it as a hobby too
22:16 < InfinitelyOscill> I wanna get noticed.
22:16 <+sadimusi> SirCmpwn: IRC? srsly?
22:16 <+SirCmpwn> I don't want you to get noticed
22:16 < Yoshi2> irc is fun to work with
22:16 <+SirCmpwn> if you get noticed, people will use your code as a reference
22:16 < InfinitelyOscill> I felt like shit at the habbo section
22:16 <+SirCmpwn> sadimusi: burger please
22:17 < InfinitelyOscill> I didn't even get how to use netty
22:17 <+SirCmpwn> wait to get noticed until you actually are worth noticing
22:17 < InfinitelyOscill> Then I looked at the netty docs a week ago
22:17 <+SirCmpwn> otherwise, you hurt the industry as a whole
22:17 < InfinitelyOscill> I can already comprehend networking
22:17 < InfinitelyOscill> From that alone.
22:17 < InfinitelyOscill> Now I know more about encryption,
22:17 < InfinitelyOscill> and can actually read server code.
22:18 < InfinitelyOscill> I'm not learning from Minecraft,
22:18 < InfinitelyOscill> I do it to pass time.
22:18 < InfinitelyOscill> I like coding and seeing it work
22:18 <+SirCmpwn> I find it very difficult to discourage these people, and every time, I end up being right about it
22:18 <+SirCmpwn> it's rather frustrating
22:19 < InfinitelyOscill> Sir: You think that some people don't have what it takes.
22:19 <+SirCmpwn> and I've been right every time
22:19 < InfinitelyOscill> I learn fast, I'm not the type to make a huge contribution
22:19 <+SirCmpwn> we'll see how you progress
22:19 < InfinitelyOscill> the first time I do something..
22:19 < InfinitelyOscill> I like reinventing the wheel sometimes.
22:19 < iBotPeaches> SirCmpwn: sadimusi said he'll get to burger when he finishes his paper
22:20 <+SirCmpwn> iBotPeaches: I am aware of that, I keep reminding him anyway
22:20 <+sadimusi> iBotPeaches: screw that, 1.6 is coming out soon :P
22:20 <+SirCmpwn> ^for that reason
22:21 < TkTech> Yoshi2: Fun in the "I like to whip myself in latex" sense of fun.
22:23 < iBotPeaches> july 1st, ahhh so much stuff to update
22:23 < Yoshi2> TkTech: well, that does sound a little bit like fun
22:23 < iBotPeaches> falling behind in the news
22:23 <+SirCmpwn> In other news, I'll update Craft.Net to support 1.6 (assuming sadimusi is agreeable), but I won't have much development done between then and 1.7
22:23 <+SirCmpwn> I have to reduce my concurrent projects, my actual job is taking up more time now
22:24 < Yoshi2> much more so than the "I like to run against the wall and hit it with my head" kind of fun
22:24 <+SirCmpwn> so I'll be working on KnightOS for a few months instead of C.N, but I'll continue to review PRs and such
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22:51 < TkTech> Yoshi2: Oh my.
22:53 < TRocket> who has mcdevs on github?
22:53 < TRocket> can i be added to the org
22:53 < TRocket> <- my username on gh
22:53 <+sadimusi> TRocket: TkTech 
22:53 < TRocket> thanks
22:53 < TRocket> TkTech: please can i be added to the gh org?
22:54 <+sadimusi> TRocket: what project are you working on?