18:45 < unnicked289> "my ban"?
18:45 < unnicked289> o.O
18:46 <+pdelvo> why does the fun in here happen when Im not here? Thats unfair :(
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20:17 < barneygale> I have a favour to ask from anyone who logs this channel (I only recently enabled it). Gr-um talked about (removal of) colour codes a few days back. Could someone gisthub the whole convo?
20:18 <+SirCmpwn> I'll give you my past week of logs and you can sort out the rest
20:20 <+SirCmpwn> jesus christ I have a lot of logs
20:21 < barneygale> thanks SirCmpwn 
20:21 <+SirCmpwn> http://ge.tt/api/1/files/9GmImyj/0/blob?download
20:21 <+SirCmpwn> barneygale: 
20:21 <+SirCmpwn> yw
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20:23 < barneygale> SirCmpwn: annoyingly the conversation isn't amongst those - must have been before. Things have been really hectic lately so I can't give you a good estimate of when
20:33 <+ammar2> barneygale: I don't have the entire conversation, or the time to go digging for it. I do have the key bit though
20:33 < barneygale> thanks ammar2, that would be very useful!
20:34 <+ammar2> barneygale: http://pastie.org/pastes/8067301/text?key=yvnltcmsncjn1ddjnsz7rw
20:34 < barneygale> thanks!
20:36 < barneygale> Time to go digging through the snapshot code I guess.
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22:14 <+SirCmpwn> barneygale: sorry, left for lunch
22:14 <+SirCmpwn> looks like ammar2 has you covered, though
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23:08 < jkbbwr> Anyone here?
23:11  * clonejo coughs quietly.
23:12 < jkbbwr> Win!
23:12 < jkbbwr> So how can I detect the end of a string
23:12  * umby24 yawns
23:12 < jkbbwr> because on http://mc.kev009.com/Protocol, I see that 0x02 is 10 bytes
23:12 <+clonejo> jkbbwr: Strings are prefixed by a short containing the length.
23:13 < jkbbwr> OHOH
23:13 < jkbbwr> Fantastic
23:13 < umby24> http://mc.kev009.com/Data_Types
23:13 <+clonejo> jkbbwr: http://www.wiki.vg/Data_Types
23:14 <+clonejo> mc.kev009.com should redirect to wiki.vg imo
23:14 < umby24> agreed actually.
23:14 < umby24> surprized it still works
23:16 <+clonejo> umby24: it's what shows up on Google
23:16 < umby24> ah. didn't know
23:17 <+clonejo> "minecraft protocol": 1. mc.kev009.com/Protocol, 4. wiki.vg
23:28 < shoghicp> yeah :(
23:28 < shoghicp> but I search everything with the site:wiki.vg at the end ;)
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23:37 < jkbbwr> why does mc send 00 after every letter in the st... ah wait
23:37 < jkbbwr> doing it wrong
23:38 < barneygale> jkbbwr: UCS-2 string
23:39 < jkbbwr> Yea I realised that while typing
23:40 < jkbbwr> Im derping up with how to actually read utf8 outa the pipe but thats not your problem
23:41 < barneygale> in python you'd read the whole thing into a byte string, then .decode('utf16-be') or such
23:46 < jkbbwr> barneygale: I was reading them off the socket, bytes at a time
23:46 < jkbbwr> for example I know the strlen is 7, 
23:47 < barneygale> why not recv(7).decode('utf-16be')?
23:47 < barneygale> well
23:47 < barneygale> It would be 14 ;)
23:51 < jkbbwr> strlen*2 ;)
23:52 < jkbbwr> ff aborting
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--- Day changed sam. juin 22 2013
00:00 <+md_5> ffmdr hi...
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00:12 < ffmdr> ffmdr: hey
00:12 < ffmdr> ffmdr: remember your EntityMap D:
00:13 < ffmdr> md_5*
00:13 < ffmdr> s/ffmdr/md_5
00:13 < ffmdr> anyway I think it can be simplified a lot because it looks like there is only one player id in each packet
00:15 < ffmdr> i.e. https://github.com/ElasticPortalSuite/BungeeCord/blob/master/proxy/src/main/java/net/md_5/bungee/EntityMap.java#L37
00:15 < ffmdr> the first one always entity id and second player id
00:15 < ffmdr> the first one is*
00:16 < ffmdr> in 0x16
00:19 < ffmdr> md_5: ping?
00:33 <+md_5> ffmdr yeah there is an open bug for that, really hesitant about touching it though
00:33 <+md_5> shit tends to blow when that map is wrong
00:33 <+md_5> Ive been using that map for 1.5 years
00:35 < ffmdr> ;P
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00:59 < ffmdr> md_5: whats wrongy with latest netty again
00:59 < ffmdr> wrong*
00:59 <+md_5> random corruption of written bytes on certain platforms
01:00 < ffmdr> "certain platforms"
01:02 < ffmdr> how about kinda unit testing that ._.
01:07 < Not-002> [fCraft] fragmer * r2041 2 files : Simplifying FloatingIslandMapGenParameters, and improving the way parameters scale with map size.
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01:38 < Drainedsoul> random corruption "on certain platforms" ooh
01:38 < Drainedsoul> this sounds like undefined behaviour to me
01:44 <+SirCmpwn> I used to have encryption problems that were similar
01:45 <+SirCmpwn> after a connection was in use for a seemingly random amount of time, the crypto would just start outputting the same byte of cyphertext for every byte of plaintext. So the server would eventually just write a shitload of 0x68 or something
01:50 < ffmdr> md_5: while updating to CR5 you rewritten CipherCodec, admit it 
01:52 <+md_5> ffmdr ? and?
01:52 <+md_5> this bug exists in Cr2+
01:52 <+md_5> when I get the time Ill go through every commit in Cr1->Cr2 and find the culprit
01:53 <+md_5> observe the downgrade process: https://github.com/ElasticPortalSuite/BungeeCord/commit/ce8f1b44b6d3dda9cc4e898c92186aa25c169f20
01:53 <+md_5> *nothing* is changed but the netty version
01:54 <+md_5> anyway gtg'
01:55 < ffmdr> yeah that's a magical unvisible bug in netty cr2+
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02:56 < ffmdr> md_5: does it corrupt player=>bungee or bungee=>bukkit ??
02:57 < ffmdr> because only one is encrypted
02:57 < Not-002> [fCraft] fragmer * r2042 18 files : Converted IMapGeneratorParameters and IMapGeneratorState interfaces into abstract classes, to reduce a lot of boilerplate code.
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03:35 < ffmdr> md_5: wait where was that bug report about this?
03:40 < Not-002> [fCraft] fragmer * r2043 4 files : Removed more boilerplate code from FlatMapGen and VanillaMapGen. Implemented parameter saving and loading in FloatingIslandMapGen.
03:41 < ffmdr> md_5: also is async http client still using netty 3? I think netty 4 module is commented out
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03:45 < ffmdr> md_5: you are shipping two netty versions xD
03:55 < ffmdr> md_5: https://github.com/timboudreau/netty-http-client \o/
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05:04 < Eloston> Do any of you guys know any custom or 3rd party Minecraft 1.6 launchers?
05:05 < Eloston> Not that I need to use it, I just want to use them as inspiration for a launcher I'm writing
05:36 < SinZ> Eloston: MultiMC, FTB Launcher, Technic Platform
05:36 < SinZ> they are the 3 biggest 3rd party launchers, but none for 1.6 yet
05:36 < SinZ> I have one in progress though
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05:51 < Not-002> [fCraft] fragmer * r2044 3 files : Fixed a crash in FlatMapGenParameters. Tweaked FloatingIslandMapGen.
06:08 < Not-002> [fCraft] fragmer * r2045 14 files : Converted IMapGenerator into an abstract class, saving lots of boilerplate code once more.
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06:35 < Eloston> Hm if I get my launcher done fast enough I might be one of the first for 1.6...
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06:43 < ffmdr> SinZ: *ekhm* MagicLauncher *ekhm*
06:44 <+SirCmpwn> the 1.6 launcher stuff is new and different
06:44 <+SirCmpwn> I don't think ML supports it yet
06:45 < Eloston> Hm I checked the thread on Minecraft Forum and it says for 1.1.5 that it is "updated to support newer snapshots"
06:45 < Eloston> so possibly yes?
06:46 < ffmdr> SirCmpwn: it does
06:46 < ffmdr> I tried MultiMC but it sucks so much...
06:48 < Eloston> dang Magic Launcher has some pretty fancy mod features
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08:32 < apiocera> 
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10:14 < Not-002> [fCraft] fragmer * r2046 5 files : Added code to MapGeneratorParameters to automate loading/saving XML parameters and cloning (thanks to Zaneo for the idea).
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10:36 < Not-002> [fCraft] fragmer * r2047 2 files : Fixed MapGeneratorParameters.LoadProperties not converting types correctly.
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13:56 < dav1d> clonejo: https://code.google.com/p/chromiumembedded/ is getting close to offscreen-rendering support in linux
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14:33 < dx> dav1d: what's the difference between "embedding chromium" and "using webkit bindings"?
14:34 < dav1d> dx: chromium is faster and better sandboxed
14:34 < dav1d> it launches its own rendering process
14:35 < dav1d> so you inject user events, chromium does everything away from the main thread, you only need to query the offsreen image and render it
14:36 < dx> i've never understood why those sandboxes are so important, other than... critical security bugs, that i've heard that have bypassed the chrome sandbox in the past
14:38 < dx> i guess you could send the sandbox process to a different user id in a chroot for extra paranoia, but who does that?
14:41 < dav1d> dx: if the sandbox crashes, e.g. flash crashed, you can react to it instead of the whole browser crashing. Never experienced that in firefox?
14:41 < dav1d> Flash crashed and firefox, too
14:41 < dav1d> dx: if you bypass it, google pays you a lot of $
14:41 < dx> dav1d: haven't had since since firefox 3.6, and that's flash, not the firefox rendering engine itself
14:42 < dx> (flash itself got sandboxed)
14:42 < dav1d> dx: right, but firefox crashes with it
14:42 < dav1d> dx: in chromium only the tab containing it crashes
14:44 < dx> dav1d: i guess i see your point, but in practice flash is the only thing that needs sandboxing
14:44 < dav1d> dx: well everything can basically crash, just flash does it really often compared to the V8 ;) (plugins in general)
14:44 < dx> yep
14:45 < dx> and sometimes the code that crashes is outside the sandbox...
14:45 < dx> so yeah.
14:45 < dav1d> well that's always a problem
14:45 < dav1d> also the chromium sandbox provides a really good security barrier
14:46 < dx> hm? elaborate?
14:48 < dav1d> never heared of google paying thousands of $ for people breaking their sandbox?
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14:48 < dav1d> dx: http://arstechnica.com/security/2012/08/google-pledges-million-in-hacking-prizes/
14:49 < dx> er...
14:49 < dx> so basically the same critical security bugs thing
14:49 < dx> okay
14:50 < dav1d> yeah
14:50 < dx> tbh i'm not sure what else i was expecting
14:50 < dav1d> there was a neat hack once, using GPU memory and webgl
14:50 < dav1d> can't remember the details though
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19:07 <+pdelvo> its annoying that 90% of the "Changes" entries on the wiki are the creation of a spam account
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19:12 <+SirCmpwn> agreed
19:12 <+SirCmpwn> wiki should have recapcha for account creation
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19:21 < Thinkofdeath> pdelvo: http://wiki.vg/wiki/index.php?namespace=2&invert=1&title=Special%3ARecentChanges 
19:21 < Thinkofdeath> Hides the account creation
19:22 <+pdelvo> does not change the fact that the wiki is full of spam accounts. I would guess that less then 5% of the accounts are human
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19:38 < dav1d> nice
19:38 < dav1d> http://wiki.vg/User:DarleneWi
19:38 < dav1d> sexcams
19:39 <+pdelvo> why hasnt anoone noticed that until now? :o
19:40 < dav1d> I found it while googling for sexcams
19:40 < dav1d> :P
19:41 <+pdelvo> you liar. then I would have found that too
19:41 < dav1d> hehe
19:41 <+pdelvo> :D
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19:52 <+SirCmpwn> I've started working on a github pages/jekyll powered wiki alternative
19:54 <+SirCmpwn> go comment with your support of this pull request, please: https://github.com/mojombo/jekyll/pull/585
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21:07 < dav1d> did anyone ever fill a whole chunk 0-256 with leaves?
21:08 < dav1d> or even better stairs
21:08 < dav1d> according to my calculations this would take around ~100-200mb vram
21:08 < dav1d> now think of 5 of these chunks
21:08 < dav1d> or 441 (renderdistance = 10)
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21:10 < dav1d> worst case for brala would be around 160mb vram and I assume brala uses less bytes per vertex
21:11 < dav1d> e.g. minecraft can't compact texture coordinates to shorts, it sends them as float
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21:19 <+SirCmpwn> minecraft now supports custom flatland
21:19 <+SirCmpwn> make one that generates 0-255 full of leaves and find out
21:20 < dav1d> ha great!
21:20 < dav1d> I didn't want to fire up mcedit
21:21 < dav1d> I had problems getting it to run last time
21:27 <+SirCmpwn> http://mctechwiki.org/
21:27 <+SirCmpwn> WIP
21:27 <+SirCmpwn> code is here https://github.com/mctechwiki/mctechwiki.github.io
21:28 <+SirCmpwn> example packet: https://raw.github.com/mctechwiki/mctechwiki.github.io/master/modern/packets/00.md
21:28 < dav1d> haha
21:28 < dav1d> Mem:          7989       7867        121          0         54       1248
21:28 <+SirCmpwn> example packet #2: https://github.com/mctechwiki/mctechwiki.github.io/raw/master/modern/packets/01.md
21:28 < dav1d> 1008MB /  1023MB
21:28 < dav1d> ^ vram
21:28 <+SirCmpwn> that's a lot of memory
21:28 < dav1d> performing better than expected
21:29 < dav1d> lol
21:29 < dav1d> F3 memory useage is so wrong
21:29 <+SirCmpwn> F3 probably only reports what Minecraft is using
21:29 < dav1d> used ~6gb the upper right corner told me it was about 200mb
21:29 <+SirCmpwn> you're looking at Minecraft+Java
21:29 < dav1d> mh wait
21:29 < dav1d> this makes no sense
21:29 < dav1d> storing these in blocks in memory needs ~200mb
21:30 < dav1d> was the graphics card swapping to ram
21:31 <+SirCmpwn> if that PR on jekyll gets accepted, this repository will be a really nice way to document minecraft
21:32 < dav1d> this bootstrap looks so ugly for wikis
21:33 <+SirCmpwn> it's mostly just to get it going faster
21:33 <+SirCmpwn> I may redesign it later
21:34 < dav1d> would be funny if the gpu swapped 6gb of data into the ram
21:34 < dav1d> but if it really did, awesome job nvidia
21:37 <+AndrewPH> lmao
21:37 <+AndrewPH> hope it did
21:38 < dav1d> yes
21:38 < dav1d> seems like it is possible
21:38 < dav1d> vram swaps to ram which then would swap to swapfile/swap-partition
21:41 < dav1d> 812 million vertices
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22:07 <+SirCmpwn> so advantages of using a github-driven documentation site: can keep local copies of the docs, we can add a git tag for major releases and you can browse the wiki as it appeared for 1.5.2 or whatever, machine-readable packet specifications, markdown
22:07 <+SirCmpwn> once I get it to be a little more dynamic, I'd appreciate some help fleshing it out
22:08 <+SirCmpwn> no more editing those horrible mediawiki tables
22:11 < clonejo1> SirCmpwn: pdelvo started something a while ago
22:11 < clonejo1> http://wiki.pdelvo.de/Protocol
22:12 < ffmdr> clonejo1: nice
22:12 < ffmdr> twitter bootstrap <3
22:12 < dav1d> lol
22:12 < dav1d> I abstracted so much away, I can't find the root of these abstractions
22:12 <+SirCmpwn> not bad
22:12 <+SirCmpwn> I'm hoping to do better than a straight-up copy of wiki.vg
22:16 < ffmdr> I wonder what is max hit count per second, I mean with a sword?
22:18 < ffmdr> is it maybe 8?
22:18 <+SirCmpwn> it would be nice if the client had a debug feature to display entity IDs above entities
22:20 < ffmdr> SirCmpwn: you can add it to server very easily with tags, not sure if they are in 1.5 or snapshot only
22:20 <+SirCmpwn> yeah, it can be done on the server, I suppose
22:20 < ffmdr> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Name_Tag 
22:20 <+SirCmpwn> I should add that as an SMProxy feature, to inject tags
22:20 < Yoshi2> in one of the versions minecraft did display entity IDs above entities, but it was removed for some reason
22:22 < dav1d> Yoshi2: could be used to xray
22:22 < dav1d> the entity IDs showed through walls
22:22 <+SirCmpwn> what use is that?
22:22 <+SirCmpwn> you can find out where some skeletons are
22:22 <+SirCmpwn> and get more bones
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22:25 < ffmdr> talking about xray, hotkey to reload chunks still works like a wallhack haha
22:28 < ffmdr> can anyone tell me what is max hits per second with a sword?
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22:34 < dav1d> SirCmpwn: also players had them above their heads iirc
22:35 < ffmdr> no one knows what is hit per second rate?
22:38 < ffmdr> :/
22:40 < ffmdr> this.rightClickDelayTimer = 4;
22:41 < ffmdr> hmm
22:42 < ffmdr> okay got the math behind it
22:42 < ffmdr> every hit adds 10 to leftClickCounter
22:42 < ffmdr> hitting entity won't work if leftClickCounter is > 0
22:42 < ffmdr> every tick decreases leftClickCounter by 1
22:44 < dav1d> :D
22:44 < dav1d> http://i.imgur.com/LgentzK.jpg
22:44 < dav1d> I think something went wrong ^
22:45 < ffmdr> but this would mean that player can make 2 hits per second D:
22:47 < ffmdr> any help decoding this...?
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23:04 < ffmdr> is client tick per second also 20 or I am missing something?
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23:08 < ffmdr> hmm it looks like leftClickCounter is only used if clicking in the air...
23:09 < ffmdr> is there really no limit on hits per second?
23:09 < dav1d> it's  10 ticks
23:09 < dav1d> there are different types of ticks
23:09 < dav1d> I guess it's the 10ticks per second type of tick
23:09 < dav1d> so 1 hit per tick, 10 hits per second
23:10 < ffmdr> dav1d: I see counter is only used while hitting in the air...hmmm
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23:10 < InfinitelyOscill> Hiya guys..
23:10 < InfinitelyOscill> .*
23:11 < dav1d> hi
23:11 < ffmdr> dav1d: http://pastebin.com/qaKn5x8L
23:12 < dav1d> ffmdr: this is client side...
23:12 < InfinitelyOscill> I'm curious.. is there any minimum packet length a minecraft packet should have?
23:12 < ffmdr> dav1d: indeed
23:12 < ffmdr> dav1d: thats what I am looking at
23:12 < dav1d> why would you look at clientside code?
23:12 < ffmdr> and counter is decreased in clients runTick
23:12 < ffmdr> dav1d: I am trying to check how many hits client can make per second
23:12 < dav1d> if the hits are limited then it's done on serverside
23:13 < dav1d> everything else would be dumb
23:13 < umby24_> InfinitelyOscill, each packet has it's own unique length. Some (most) packets vary in length
23:13 < ffmdr> ._.
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23:13 < InfinitelyOscill> I know that, but for example, what should the buffer size be before reading the packet, 4 or 8, etc.
23:14 < dav1d> InfinitelyOscill: don't use a buffer, read from the socket what you need
23:14 < dav1d> the exact amount of bytes
23:14 < umby24> field by field
23:14 < InfinitelyOscill> if (buffer.readableBytes() < 6)                 return null;
23:14 < dav1d> everything else just makes it harderr and a socket is a good buffer already
23:14 < InfinitelyOscill> Like that.. in netty.
23:14 < dav1d> a buffer you don't have to care about, the OS does
23:15 < InfinitelyOscill> Oh.
23:15 < dav1d> ok bbl
23:15 < InfinitelyOscill> Thanks, I'll be idle.
23:16 < dav1d> yeah the os buffers networking stuff internally, probably better than you ever can
23:16 < dav1d> now I am really away^^
23:20 < ffmdr> dav1d: http://pastebin.com/rPW15uYu
23:20 < ffmdr> hmm
23:21 < ffmdr> I don't see anything like lastHitMiliseconds or so
23:24 < ffmdr> so is pvp really about who can click mouse buttons faster :P?
23:43 < ffmdr> it looks like limit is 20 hits per second
23:53 < InfinitelyOscill> In the protocol, how are packets divided, specifically strings?
23:54 < InfinitelyOscill> I've observed a peculiar 3 whitespace character.
23:59 < Yoshi2> InfinitelyOscill: you may want to look at http://wiki.vg/Data_Types and http://wiki.vg/Protocol if you haven't already
23:59 < Yoshi2> strings are encoded in big endian UCS-2 and prefixed with a short, which describes the string's length in characters
23:59 < InfinitelyOscill> Just when you mentioned Data Types
23:59 < InfinitelyOscill> I was on that page
--- Day changed dim. juin 23 2013
00:00 < InfinitelyOscill> Thanks, that helped me a lot!
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02:08 < ffmdr> md_5: you know you are shipping two netty versions in bugee, right? :D
02:09 <+md_5> ffmdr yes.. its intentional
02:09 < ffmdr> https://github.com/timboudreau/netty-http-client => alternative
02:09 < ffmdr> your jar is so fat D:
02:09 <+md_5> its not in maven central for 1
02:09 <+md_5> ffmdr the jar is fat because I include libraries for plugins to use
02:10 <+md_5> its smaller than if every plugin included every library it needed
02:10 < ffmdr> your jar is as fat as craftbukkit
02:10 <+md_5> and?
02:10 <+md_5> I really dont get your point
02:11 < ffmdr> the point is that it is too fat 
02:11 <+md_5> ...................................
02:11 < ffmdr> ...
02:11 <+md_5> I could squash it down to 4mb
02:11 <+md_5> but then plugins that need libraries
02:11 <+md_5> need to include those liobraries
02:11 <+md_5> end result is 4mb of bungee and 40mb of plufins
02:11 <+md_5> as opposed to 12mb of bungee and 1mb of plugins
02:12 <+md_5> also you have clearly never done enterprise java development
02:12 <+md_5> some web apps are over 100mb of libraries and hooks
02:13 <+md_5> is download 12mb an issue to you?
02:13 <+md_5> *downloding
02:13 <+md_5> blargh whatever can't type
02:14 < ffmdr> it is downloading nearly 30 seconds on my shitty internet
02:14 <+md_5> 30 seconds....
02:14 <+md_5> that is nothing at all
02:15 < ffmdr> irony mode off
02:15 <+md_5> and you have to do this what? once a week. Bungee should be on a server with good internet
02:15 < ffmdr> ok, whatever
02:17 < ffmdr> md_5: oh and about that magical netty bug any progress on finding which commit "caused" it?
02:17 <+md_5> yeah pretty sure they made pipeline operations non-atomic
02:18 <+md_5> waiting for confirmation of if its a bug or what
02:18 <+md_5> https://github.com/netty/netty/issues/1480
02:18 < ffmdr> md_5: are you swapping decoders?
02:18 <+md_5> I have a workaround in mind, but tbh it makes sense for pipeline operations to be atomic
02:18 < ffmdr> ah handlers, right
02:18 <+md_5> which is why I point the finger at https://github.com/netty/netty/commit/ca5554dfe7707d2cce712d1165a648129e0a9c84
02:18 <+md_5> specifically the changes to DefaultChannelPipeline
02:19 < ffmdr> md_5: removing synchronized?
02:21 <+md_5> well the fact that the handlers are not added on the event loop could lead to thread caching issues as iirc none of the variables are marked volatile, even if they were marked volatile they would still be subject to races
02:21 <+md_5> whereas if it was added on the eventloop you are guaranteed of all the changes being visible, as well as in order execution
02:22 <+md_5> thing is, I should be adding and writing in the same eventloop anyway :|
02:22 < ffmdr> I guess pipeline operations should be picked up by io threads and not block here?
02:23 <+md_5> yah but I should be doing them in the io thread anyway :|      Anyway convinced its that commit
02:23 < ffmdr> md_5: so users doesn't get connection errors randomly but when handlers are switched?
02:24 <+md_5> added, but yeah
02:24 <+md_5> I've refined it down to there
02:24 <+md_5> I have a multitude of ways to fix it, but I;d rather hear back from one of the devs first
02:25 < ffmdr> how about a workaround like; you have a handler which wraps other handler and it uses own switcher with mutex :P?
02:25 <+md_5> lolno
02:25 < ffmdr> lol
02:28 < ffmdr> well in theory what could go wrong there, nothing would be swapped on netty side
02:28 < ffmdr> just a theoretical question D:
02:28 <+md_5> yup I reckon Ive cracked it
02:28 <+md_5> since the cipher isnt actually being added in the event loop
02:29 < ffmdr> so the first theory was wrong?
02:30 <+md_5> https://github.com/netty/netty/issues/1480#issuecomment-19867107
02:30 <+md_5> 100% sure thats the issue
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02:35 < ffmdr> md_5: ah so that encryption response got encrypted before sending?
02:35 <+md_5> yup
02:35 <+md_5> because the above netty commit added a race causing pipeline manipulation and writes to not maintain order
02:35 < ffmdr> makes sense now
02:37  * md_5 does a quick test run
02:41 <+md_5> https://github.com/ElasticPortalSuite/BungeeCord/commit/9a173968f1646cbac8474e7337de21d353abce32
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02:46 < ffmdr> md_5: btw a simplier workaround would be to add encrypter after receiving next packet
02:47 < ffmdr> just saying
02:47 <+md_5> you dont know what the next packet will be
02:47 <+md_5> this is a better option, .write() does the same thing internally anyway
02:47 < ffmdr> yeah I am just saying, I don't think you are going to send anything before bukkit sends 0x01 or whatever
02:48 < ffmdr> you are not*
02:48 < ffmdr> no 
02:48 < ffmdr> uhh
02:48 < ffmdr> you are*
02:48 < ffmdr> bad correction
02:49 < ffmdr> wait ignore above it wasn't even connecting to bukkit
02:54 < ffmdr> btw just noticed one of the most popular hacked clients makes a nice IRC botnet of 800 people online
02:54 < ffmdr> hacked clients are shit
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03:51 < ffmdr> md_5: are you using intellij?
04:04 < ffmdr> md_5: are you afk D: ?
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04:07 <+md_5> ffmdr I use netbeans
04:09 <+SirCmpwn> ffmdr: IRC etiquette dictates that you simply wait patiently when someone takes time to respond, instead of commenting on their status and further burdening them with notifications when they eventually do return
04:12 < dx> SirCmpwn: that reply was so verbose that i'd only write it if it was part of a command alias
04:13 < dx> i really i should add a bunch of verbose aliases for variations of "be patient"
04:13 < dx> s/i should/should/
04:14 < ffmdr> SirCmpwn: uhm sorry ._.
04:15 < dx> yeah, that's the thing, if you write a verbose reply like that, people think that you were annoyed by it
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04:16 < dx> (which is exactly what i want to achieve, without actually feeling annoyed or bothering to write it at all)
04:16 < ffmdr> md_5: I was going to ask about intellij fonts since you use linux but ok then
04:16 < dx> ffmdr: fonts? wat
04:17 <+SirCmpwn> I was indeed annoyed by it, dx
04:17 < ffmdr> dx: spoiler: java fonts look like shit on linux
04:17 < dx> ffmdr: oh, the font rendering, not the font itself
04:18 <+SirCmpwn> my observation of ffmdr in the time he's spent here has led me to believe that he is not very good at picking up the subtleties of IRC culture
04:18 <+md_5> ffmdr I just use.... default
04:18 < dx> SirCmpwn: protip: chill out, don't worry so much about stuff like this.
04:18 <+SirCmpwn> thank you for your input
04:19 < ffmdr> md_5: okey. for me all java linux fonts look...bad
04:19 < ffmdr> SirCmpwn: ...
04:20 < dx> ffmdr: *all* fonts in java?
04:20 < dx> ffmdr: in every java app ever?
04:20 < ffmdr> dx: font rendering in GUI
04:20 <+md_5> ffmdr do you have wine?
04:20 < ffmdr> md_5 yes
04:20 < dx> wine wot
04:21 <+md_5> yeah wine screws fonts when using java 7
04:21 < ffmdr> lol
04:21 < dx> how
04:21 < dx> ._.
04:21 <+SirCmpwn> >java
04:21 <+SirCmpwn> there's your answer
04:21 < dx> unless you run java through wine, which is WHY
04:21 <+md_5> no, it installs a package
04:21 <+md_5> which breaks fonts
04:22 < dx> sounds like a distro issue
04:22 < dx> since i'm fine here
04:22 < dx> but interesting
04:22 <+md_5> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openjdk-7/+bug/937200
04:22 <+md_5> ffmdr sudo apt-get remove fonts-unfonts-core
04:22 <+md_5> is thequick and dirty way
04:22 < ffmdr> md_5: arch linux here
04:23 < dx> lol "fat fonts"
04:23 < dx> arch linux here too
04:23 <+SirCmpwn> I tried once
04:23 < dx> never had such issue
04:23 < ffmdr> maybe I'm oversensitive about fonts
04:23 <+SirCmpwn> I decided that my evening was better spent doing something else
04:23 <+md_5> dx only affects java 7
04:24 < dx> jre7-openjdk 7.u21_2.3.9-3
04:24 < dx> ffmdr: oh i use freetype2-infinality btw, never liked the default freetype font rendering
04:25 < ffmdr> dx: I had plans to install it too
04:25 < dx> ffmdr: do eet
04:25 < ffmdr> also I was trying to compile openjdk with fontfix for two hours
04:26 < ffmdr> with no diffrence
04:26 < ffmdr> and fontconfig isn't even in strace
04:26 < ffmdr> weird
04:26 < dx> huh
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04:26 < ffmdr> https://gist.github.com/trustin/2893461
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04:28 < dx> also i don't think you should expect it to appear on strace
04:28 < dx> since... it traces system calls
04:28 < ffmdr> dx: it also shows loaded libs
04:28 < ffmdr> actually freetype not fontconfig
04:29 < ffmdr> http://www.infinality.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=275
04:29 < dx> hm, right, open() is a system call lol
04:29 < ffmdr> dx: infinality with openjdk fontfix looks pretty awesome
04:30 < dx> ffmdr: did you get it working, or is it just because of that screenshot?
04:30 < dx> (because that's how it has always looked for me)
04:30 < ffmdr> um
04:30 < ffmdr> it looks more like http://i.imgur.com/wzVVm.png
04:30 < ffmdr> which is screenshot from that topic before fontfixes 
04:31 < dx> that doesn't look too bad
04:32 < ffmdr> dx: I have a weird feeling that file/edit/view menu is using diffrent font than other gui(not talking about code editor)
04:32 < ffmdr> dx: http://screencloud.net/img/screenshots/fc6ae9f206112053f778de8a24b9e861.png
04:33 < dx> looks like i found someone who is more picky about fonts than me
04:33 < ffmdr> heh
04:33 < ffmdr> because when I look at IntelliJ Idea on OSX and its fonts...
04:34 < ffmdr> ouch
04:34 < dx> but yeah if you get it to work with infinality it will look awesomer
04:34 < ffmdr> dx: btw what distro are you using?
04:34 < dx> 23:18 < dx> arch linux here too
04:35 < ffmdr> oh, missed that
04:35 < dx> also /etc/profile.d/infinality-settings.sh has a few presets, including one that simulates the OSX rendering if you're into that
04:35 < ffmdr> I don't think OSX rendering would look good in KDE
04:36 < ffmdr> dx: are you using repo from https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Font_Configuration#Infinality:_the_easy_way ?
04:36 < dx> it's just a matter of experimenting
04:36 < dx> nah, AUR'd it, i don't mind compiling
04:37 < ffmdr> updating AUR software is a pain in the ass
04:37 < dx> there are aur helpers that make it easier
04:38 < ffmdr> you mean yaourt?
04:38 < dx> that's one of them
04:39 < dx> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Aur_helpers
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04:40 < dx> this one looks nice https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacaur
04:41 < dx> ffmdr: nothing wrong with using repos, though
04:41 < ffmdr> Multiple runtime settings that come with freetype2-infinality, including, among other things, a selection of Windows, Apple and Ubuntu schemes were replaced by a single new one, as needed by fontconfig-infinality-ultimate.
04:42 < dx> whoops.
04:43 < ffmdr> dx: not sure if I really need these presetes
04:43 < ffmdr> presets*
04:43 < dx> ffmdr: you need to be able to tweak though
04:44 < ffmdr> dx: ok, installing normal one
04:44 < ffmdr> it is going to delete freetype2 before installing...saving all works first :P
04:44 < ffmdr> work*
04:44 < dx> i never bother doing that
04:44 < dx> it just works™, the worst you can see is some random font corruption
04:45 < ffmdr> every time I open or close minecraft it flashes my screen and corrupts all other opengl stuff
04:45 < ffmdr> I even had to delete xrandr binary because it was changing my screen resolution to 50hz every time...
04:46 < dx> fun
04:46 < ffmdr> it seems like new lwjgl is even more buggy
04:46 < ffmdr> than old shipped with minecraft was
04:49 < ffmdr> dx: fonts look so much better now
04:50 < dx> \o/
04:50 < ffmdr> without hinting
04:50 < dx> without?
04:50 < dx> hinting has always confused me
04:50 < ffmdr> I mean my hinting is off
04:50 < ffmdr> dx: or maybe placebo effect
04:50 < dx> heh
04:52 < ffmdr> dx: it was placebo effect. I guess I need to restart KDE at least
04:52 < dx> lol
04:52 < dx> you need to restart at least one app
04:52 < dx> and, well, for infinality source the env vars
04:52 < ffmdr> ok I started one new app and fonts look like shit :D
04:53 < dx> :D
04:53 < ffmdr> ouch
04:54 < ffmdr> eeh
04:54 < ffmdr> brb restarting
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05:00 < ffmdr> dx: gtk fonts look cool, qt fonts feels like a weird kind of hinting now
05:00 < dx> ffmdr: odd
05:02 < ffmdr> dx: http://screencloud.net/img/screenshots/37789042d4b7229afce7252771bf3dc8.png
05:03 < dx> ffmdr: no idea what's wrong with this :D
05:03 < ffmdr> dx: are you using kde?
05:03 < dx> ffmdr: nope
05:04 < dx> not sure what i'm using but it's mostly gtk
05:04 < ffmdr> hmm I have force fonts dpi to 96 because otherwise they are really small
05:05 < ffmdr> dx: are you using ubuntu fonts?
05:05 < dx> ffmdr: nope. mostly dejavu
05:06 < ffmdr> I'll try Oxygen font
05:10 < ffmdr> dx: archlinux wiki just died
05:14 < dx> rip
05:16 <+SirCmpwn> why don't you have a local copy of the archlinux wiki, ffmdr
05:16 <+SirCmpwn> I suggest you acquire one when it comes back up
05:17 < ffmdr> SirCmpwn: srsly?
05:17 <+SirCmpwn> you have a full-sized keyboard at your disposal
05:18 < dx> https://www.archlinux.org/packages/community/any/arch-wiki-docs/
05:18 <+SirCmpwn> do not disrespect me with your lazy-words
05:18 < dx> didn't know this existed
05:18 < ffmdr> SirCmpwn: seriously?
05:18 <+SirCmpwn> yes, seriously. local documentation is easier to work with
05:18 <+SirCmpwn> you can grep it and such
05:18 <+SirCmpwn> and it doesn't go down
05:19 < dx> ffmdr: that package i linked has the whole wiki. that's pretty awesome.
05:20 < ffmdr> dx: oh a package. awesome
05:20 <+SirCmpwn> does it update, dx?
05:20 <+SirCmpwn> that'd be pretty sick
05:20 <+SirCmpwn> I can imagine a daily job to update the package
05:20 < ffmdr> SirCmpwn: it is timestamped
05:20 < dx> it updates.. when the package maintainer updates it
05:20 < ffmdr> current one is 20130505-1
05:20 <+SirCmpwn> on the package maintainer's side, that is
05:20 <+SirCmpwn> you should contact the maintainer and ask for the script they use to produce the package
05:20 < dx> https://projects.archlinux.org/svntogit/community.git/tree/trunk?h=packages/arch-wiki-docs
05:21 < dx> the scripts are one click away :D
05:21 <+SirCmpwn> :D
05:21 <+SirCmpwn> the maintainer should set up a cron job to publish new versions of the package periodically
05:21 < dx> yeah
05:21 < ffmdr> SirCmpwn: https://projects.archlinux.org/svntogit/community.git/tree/trunk/index.pl?h=packages/arch-wiki-docs :D
05:22 < ffmdr> it downloads first 500 pages as json if I understand correctly
05:22 <+SirCmpwn> ffmdr: thank you for linking me to exactly what I was just linked to
05:22 <+SirCmpwn> is the arch wiki based on mediawiki?
05:22 < dx> yeah
05:22 <+SirCmpwn> bleh
05:22 < ffmdr> SirCmpwn: I linked to index.pl actually
05:23 <+SirCmpwn> ffmdr: revised: thank you for linking me to something that was a click away from what I was just linked to
05:23 < dx> lol
05:23 < ffmdr> SirCmpwn: np
05:23 <+SirCmpwn> I hope that I can polish my mctechwiki.org thing enough to call it a viable wiki package
05:23 <+SirCmpwn> I'm really tired of mediawiki being used everywhere, it sucks
05:23 < dx> also, nobody likes mediawiki, but nobody agrees in a good replacement for it either
05:23 < barneygale> yeah it already got converted to markdown
05:24 < barneygale> or is that this new wiki?
05:24 < dx> barneygale: context: arch linux wiki
05:24 <+SirCmpwn> please voice your support for this pull request: https://github.com/mojombo/jekyll/pull/585
05:24 <+SirCmpwn> barneygale: mctechwiki.org is something I started putting together earlier today
05:25 < dx> there's no such thing as "voice your support", there's "spam the comments section and still get ignored" :/
05:25 <+SirCmpwn> it's some fancy jekyll+github pages put together at an attempt for a good+powerful collaborative editing platform
05:25 <+SirCmpwn> dx: well, then I revise my request to "please spam the comments section and still get ignored for this pull request"
05:25 < dx> i wish github had proper voting for issues. they can get ignored too, but are less annoying for people who participate in the issue
05:25 < dx> SirCmpwn: :D
05:26 <+SirCmpwn> I might tweet mojombo as well, if he does not respond
05:26 <+SirCmpwn> this feature seems like quite a serious omission from jekyll
05:27 <+SirCmpwn> jekyll seems promising, but half finished, and not really maintained
05:27 <+SirCmpwn> s/maintained/actively developed/
05:30 < dx> personally i'm going to use this to generate my website once i decide to have more than a single index.html http://nikola.ralsina.com.ar/
05:30 < ffmdr> SirCmpwn: btw are you aware of the fact the your home adress is in whois
05:30 <+SirCmpwn> ffmdr: what's the address listed?
05:30 < dx> ffmdr: ...
05:30 < dx> ffmdr: that's perfectly normal for domain names lol
05:30 <+SirCmpwn> I think it's outdated
05:30 <+SirCmpwn> thanks for reminding me to update iit
05:30 <+SirCmpwn> it*
05:31 < dx> North Chestnut Street
05:31 < ffmdr> dx: I think not everyone likes their adress and stuff hanging in whois databases
05:31 < dx> number omitted for no good reason at all
05:31 <+SirCmpwn> yeah, outdated
05:31 <+SirCmpwn> I'll go fix it
05:31 < dx> ffmdr: he seems to be the opposite of that :D
05:31 <+SirCmpwn> actually, I won't bother
05:32 <+SirCmpwn> I'm moving permanently to los angeles in a few months
05:32 <+SirCmpwn> I don't want to update it twice
05:32 <+SirCmpwn> since I own a dozen domains that all need updating
05:32 < dx> ffmdr: but seriously, most people know this perfectly when purchasing a domain
05:32 < ffmdr> dx: some regret it 
05:33 < dx> ffmdr: meh
05:33 <+SirCmpwn> hah, it still says "miner's guild"
05:34 <+SirCmpwn> the first domain I registered with namecheap was on their behalf and they've stuck that in every damn WHOIS record they've assigned since
05:34 < dx> that name is rather generic
05:35 < ffmdr> SirCmpwn: is it some random name or did you register a firm?
05:35 <+SirCmpwn> I still own minersguild.net
05:35 < dx> i get results from a bunch of different non-minecraft games when googling it
05:35 < dx> and bitcoin too
05:35 <+SirCmpwn> I didn't choose the name, ffmdr, I don't know what came of it
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06:10 < ffmdr> Received CTCP-VERSION request by SirCmpwn!~SirCmpwn@unaffiliated/sircmpwn
06:11 <+SirCmpwn> that was at least 15 minutes ago
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07:50 < dylanisawesome1> hello, I've been looking at the protocol, and simply trying to get the player to connect, but the server doesn't seem to respond with anything...
07:52 < dylanisawesome1> here's my code http://pastie.org/8071254
07:52 <+md_5> u
07:52 <+md_5> uh
07:52 <+md_5> there are so many problems with that code I dont know where to begin
07:52 < dylanisawesome1> uh-oh
07:53 <+md_5> you havent pasted the string methods
07:53 <+md_5> you are reading a signed byte into  a Byte
07:53 <+md_5> instead read it unsigned into the primitive byte
07:53 <+md_5> short input = in.readByte() & 0xFF;
07:53 < dylanisawesome1> ok
07:55 < dylanisawesome1> my writestring method: http://pastie.org/8071259
07:59 <+md_5> length +1
07:59 <+md_5> why....
07:59 <+md_5> length is fine
07:59 <+md_5> thats why you never get a response :p
07:59 < dylanisawesome1> really? oh sorry :(
07:59 < dylanisawesome1> lol
07:59 < dylanisawesome1> yay response
07:59 < dylanisawesome1> thanks
07:59 < dylanisawesome1> sorry that my code had "so many problems you didn't know where to begin"
08:03 < dylanisawesome1> thanks for the help!
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08:07 < dx> dos.write(25565);
08:07 < dx> md_5: doesn't this write only one byte?
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08:39 <+md_5> dx yah
08:39 <+md_5> that too
08:39 < dx> i have no idea how he got it working then
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08:51 < SinZ> also, his clientstatus packet
08:55 <+SirCmpwn> more people should suggest using an existing library right off the bat for these sorts
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09:08 < dx> SirCmpwn: yeah, but i don't think we can cover every possible implementation language with decent up to date libraries
09:08 <+SirCmpwn> so don't
09:09 <+SirCmpwn> just link them to whichever implementation is closest to their desired language
09:09 < dx> i don't think we can force everyone to use C# either
09:09 <+SirCmpwn> no, but we can strongly suggest it, since these folks generally fail to make their own
09:10 < dx> ¯\(°_o)/¯ 
09:10 < dx> we could.
09:28 < Drainedsoul> so condescending
09:30 < dx> Drainedsoul: er, a lot of people who join here are completely clueless
09:31 < dx> and it's an awful protocol to implement completely
09:33 <+SirCmpwn> Drainedsoul: it comes from being here for a long time
09:33 <+SirCmpwn> well, a "long time"
09:33 <+SirCmpwn> a year and a half, ish
09:34 < Drainedsoul> it's a pretty awful protocol, but I think how awful it is to implement depends on your language-of-choice
09:34 <+SirCmpwn> most of the people that come here probably couldn't implement it on the language of their choice without some of us doing half the work for them
09:34 < dx> ^pretty much
09:34 <+SirCmpwn> better to direct them to some existing code than to waste the time of everyone involved
09:35 <+AndrewPH> Drainedsoul: coming from somebody who's been here for over 2 years, most of the people who join here don't know what they're getting into
09:36 < Drainedsoul> that's true, but that kind of attitude has a tendency to catch people in a wide net
09:36 < dx> IMO the best way to have libraries that cover most languages is to use something like deoxxa's libmcnet, which already has nodejs bindings
09:37 < dx> and it's just a protocol parser
09:37 <+SirCmpwn> Drainedsoul: did you not see the code he posted here
09:37 <+SirCmpwn> Drainedsoul: and the question he asked
09:37 <+SirCmpwn> Drainedsoul: he was obviously wasting his and our time
09:38 < Drainedsoul> I'm not questioning that, but having existing libraries rammed down your throat when that's not what you want or need is exceptionally annoying
09:39 < dx> annoying?
09:39 < dx> what's annoying about already having a working implementation of what you want to do?
09:39 < Drainedsoul> "when that's not what you want or need"
09:39 < dx> they often "need" to have a NPC bot for a server or some equivalent bullshit
09:40 < dx> not to learn networking through an awful protocol
09:41 < Drainedsoul> well, if you're learning networking through a protocol you already have problems
09:41 <+SirCmpwn> exactly
09:41 < dx> this kind of people often don't know anything about networking, and can barely tell apart different data types
09:42 <+SirCmpwn> I remember that guy who didn't know how to write data to a TCP stream
09:42 < dx> so what's the issue about telling them how to avoid a nightmare?
09:42 <+SirCmpwn> I kept not telling him and he didn't get the hint
09:42 < Drainedsoul> well, using a library isn't going to ameliorate the issue of not understanding data types
09:42 <+SirCmpwn> Drainedsoul: it makes it so they don't have to know
09:43 < Drainedsoul> a library doesn't remove the limitations of data types
09:43 <+SirCmpwn> what kind of libraries are you using
09:43 < Drainedsoul> you can't magically represent 65536 as a 16-bit unsigned integer because you used a library
09:43 <+SirCmpwn> you don't need to
09:43 < Drainedsoul> need is a very strong and often subjective word
09:43 <+SirCmpwn> using Craft.Net, for example, you can make bots without even coming close to the network
09:43 <+SirCmpwn> ditto for servers
09:44 < dx> in a statically typed language, you'll get the packets with the corresponding data types, and the compiler will tell you if you get it wrong
09:44 < dx> in a dynamically typed language, the libraries will 
09:44 < dx> damn enter
09:44 < dx> will just do the appropriate casts when sending and receiving from the socket
09:45 < dx> (i wonder, am i oversimplifying?)
09:45 < Drainedsoul> assuming the types are convertible or sane, yes.
09:45 < dx> http://wiki.vg/Data_Types
09:45 < dx> not rocket science
09:45 < Drainedsoul> ...but we were just talking under the assumption that the person-in-question didn't understand data types
09:46 < Drainedsoul> so your solution to them not understanding data types is to understand data types
09:46 < Drainedsoul> ergo proving my point
09:46 < dx> er no?
09:46 <+SirCmpwn> you don't need to know how an int moves over the wire to use one locally
09:46 < Drainedsoul> an int is a data type
09:46 <+SirCmpwn> you don't need to know how many bits are in it or what endianness it is or the signedness
09:46 < Drainedsoul> we were talking about data types
09:46 < Drainedsoul> not byte-serialized representations thereof
09:46 < Drainedsoul> yeah that has nothing to do with data types, that's serialization
09:46 <+SirCmpwn> well that's what bloody well matters here, isn't it
09:47 < dx> okay then, they don't have to deal with serialization, including width, endianness, alignment, and all that bullshit
09:47 < Drainedsoul> well they still have to deal with width, but not those othings things
09:47 <+SirCmpwn> they don't really have to deal with width
09:48 < dx> they can send integers as ints, doubles as float, strings as strings
09:48 < dx> the library will turn ints into shorts or longs or whatever
09:48 < Drainedsoul> double to float is narrowing
09:48 < dx> it's just an example
09:48 <+SirCmpwn> and it doesn't matter
09:48 <+SirCmpwn> under what circumstances will that matter
09:48 < Drainedsoul> well if you want to represent 65536, it certainly matters if that gets narrowed to 16 bits
09:49 <+SirCmpwn> under what circumstances will they want to represent 65536
09:49 < dx> if they want to send data that is bigger than the protocol field allows it, the library can throw a warning or exception
09:50 <+SirCmpwn> example: with Craft.Net, you use "client.Position.Z += Vector3.Forward" to move forward
09:50 <+SirCmpwn> you use world.SetBlock(new Coordinates3D(1, 2, 3), GoldBlock.BlockId) to set a block
09:50 <+SirCmpwn> it's all rather idiot-proof
09:50 <+SirCmpwn> other libraries are similar
09:51 < Drainedsoul> I wouldn't exactly call that "idiot proof", but it's certainly a convenient level of abstraction
09:51 <+SirCmpwn> you can even do things like using Vector3 and Coordinates3D interchangeably, it'll automatically convert it before it goes over the wire or anything
09:51 < Drainedsoul> my point is really that all abstractions leak
09:52 <+SirCmpwn> and this much is suitable for the applications the ignorant ones come in here looking to build
09:52 < Drainedsoul> which is fine, but originally I was talking about having pre-built libraries and just seeing everything as a use case, when it may not be so.
09:52 < Drainedsoul> even if all you have is a hammer, not everything is a nail
09:52 <+SirCmpwn> you keep forgetting the main point, Drainedsoul. We are discussing how to reduce the amount of time wasted on people who are not going to succeed
09:52 <+SirCmpwn> which I see as quite a problem in this channel
09:53 < Drainedsoul> there's also the problem that people allow those people to infect their mindset when answering the questions of people whose success is not quite so predetermined
09:53 <+SirCmpwn> how about this
09:54 <+SirCmpwn> I won't do this to any new users for a few weeks
09:54 <+SirCmpwn> but every time one shows up, I'll PM you my prediction on their success
09:54 < dx> lol
09:54 <+SirCmpwn> we'll measure my success rate and then subjectively determine if this policy is a good one to use
09:54 <+SirCmpwn> objectively*
09:54 < dx> :D
09:54 < Drainedsoul> but that wouldn't convince me.  I think it's fine to suggest libraries, pre-built tools, etc. for someone once it's evident they need them
09:54 < Drainedsoul> I'm saying that people who neither want or need them shouldn't have them shoved down their throats
09:55 <+SirCmpwn> I'll just tell them to PM you for help, then
09:56 < dx> also
09:56 < Drainedsoul> I'm not compelled to answer or engage them, so I don't see how that matters
09:56 < dx> gotta love one hour long discussions about how to avoid wasting time
09:56 <+SirCmpwn> if you aren't going to be offering assistance to people here, you aren't in a position to advise on how this assistance is provided
09:56 <+SirCmpwn> dx: of course
09:56 < Drainedsoul> yeah the whole channel is a waste of time.  hobby development is a "waste of time".  "Waste of time" is totally subjective
09:57 <+SirCmpwn> it's objective, according to what I've been saying this whole time. It's a waste of time to assist someone who will fail to accomplish their goal
09:57 < dx> what isn't subjective is that people joining here often get frustrated about the complexity of the protocol
09:58 < dx> bah, it's not complex, it's just complicated, boring, and with lots of manual work unless you find a clever way to avoid it
09:58 < dexter0> It's not a waste of time if they learn something along the way or as a result of their failure.
09:58 < Drainedsoul> I'm speaking from the personal bias of being tired of being told to simply use something that exists, or being treated like I have no idea what I'm talking about
09:58 < Drainedsoul> also what dexter0 said
09:58 < dx> the minecraft protocol is not the right place to learn basic networking...
09:59 < Drainedsoul> no protocol is the right place to learn basic networking
09:59 <+SirCmpwn> the only thing they usually learn is that they arne't capable of minecraft hacking
09:59 < dx> not sure what meaning of hacking you're using there :D
09:59 <+SirCmpwn> Drainedsoul: do you have any idea what you are talking about?
10:00 < Drainedsoul> I'm assuming that question is rhetorical.
10:00 < dx> i have no idea how to read that question as rhetorical, sounded pretty direct to me
10:00 <+SirCmpwn> where's your github, Drainedsoul
10:00 < dx> enlighten me
10:01 < Drainedsoul> saying that a protocol is the place to learn basic networking, is like saying that building rooves is the place to learn to build houses
10:01 <+SirCmpwn> what's your goal, and how far have you come, in how much time
10:01 < Drainedsoul> protocols presuppose basic networking abilities
10:01 < dx> if you have to write an IRC client, you just need to know how to write bytestrings to a tcp socket
10:01 < dx> sounds like a perfect place to start for me
10:02 < Drainedsoul> the ideal place to learn something is not somewhere that you have to do it
10:02 <+SirCmpwn> I dunno, IRC is a lot better than Minecraft, but it still leaves a lot to be desired
10:02 <+SirCmpwn> like proper transactions
10:02 -!- nopresnik [~Nathan@CPE-58-164-126-126.lnse4.win.bigpond.net.au] has joined #mcdevs
10:03 < dx> SirCmpwn: hah, tktech mentioned the same thing about transactions the last time we talked about suggesting the irc protocol to newbies
10:03 <+SirCmpwn> I can't really think of a better protocol to suggest, though
10:03 <+SirCmpwn> certainly not HTTP
10:03 < dx> http is boring
10:03 <+SirCmpwn> maybe DNS, but that's a UDP protocol
10:04 < Drainedsoul> you can do DNS over TCP too
10:04 <+SirCmpwn> yeah, but you shouldn't
10:04 < Drainedsoul> well you can't zone transfer with UDP afaik
10:05 <+SirCmpwn> you can also deliver a piece of paper with a semi truck
10:07 <+AndrewPH> SirCmpwn: isn't http/1.0 really simple?
10:07 <+SirCmpwn> simple, yeah
10:07 <+SirCmpwn> but there are some really stupid things
10:07 < Drainedsoul> are there any truly beautiful, not-stupid protocols?
10:08 <+SirCmpwn> AndrewPH: example: multipart/form-data
10:08 <+AndrewPH> Drainedsoul: the runescape protocol is pretty beautiful
10:08 < Drainedsoul> for starter protocols, anything you can type over telnet is better than most, imho
10:08 <+AndrewPH> and I think I almost died saying that
10:09 < dx> AndrewPH: haha what, that was unexpected
10:09 < Drainedsoul> honestly I like SMTP
10:09 <+AndrewPH> dx: had to do some work with it... well, with the old protocol
10:09 < Drainedsoul> not to be confused with ESMTP
10:09 <+SirCmpwn> telnet is a protocol in and of itself
10:09 <+AndrewPH> but i suspect it's not much different
10:09 <+SirCmpwn> I wish more people understood that
10:09 < Drainedsoul> yeah but it doesn't have much of an application
10:09 <+SirCmpwn> you can't use most protocols properly with it
10:10 < Drainedsoul> what do you mean "properly"
10:10 <+SirCmpwn> without botching it all up
10:10 < dx> telnet has its own terminal emulation handling
10:11 < dx> so sometimes you send more data than what you see
10:11 < Drainedsoul> that could be true.  I've used POP3 and SMTP servers with telnet clients before (and PuTTY in raw mode, but that's different) and that worked fine
10:11 <+SirCmpwn> putty in raw mode is what you're looking for
10:12 < Drainedsoul> I don't always have PuTTY :(
10:12 <+SirCmpwn> you always have netcat
10:12 <+SirCmpwn> if you're on unixy systems
10:12 < Drainedsoul> then again, I guess that argument doesn't hold water
10:12 < dx> how can you not have putty on windows
10:12 < Drainedsoul> because on modern Windows you don't always have telnet either
10:12 < Drainedsoul> ffs M$