10:12 <+SirCmpwn> good luck compiling it, though, it took me a good half dozen tries
10:13 <+SirCmpwn> he seems to have a problem with documenting dependencies
10:13 < Grum> sigh
10:13 < Grum> so how is that betteR?
10:13 < dx> he also loves adding dependencies
10:13 <+SirCmpwn> it's very performant, Grum
10:13 <+SirCmpwn> I got some ridiculous framerates when I eventually did get it working
10:14 <+SirCmpwn> it doesn't have lighting, admittedly, but that's fairly cheap after it's calculated
10:14 < Grum> also sorry, its not 1.2 compat.
10:14 <+SirCmpwn> is it?
10:14 < Grum> it snot
10:14 <+SirCmpwn> huh. I thought it used to be
10:14 < Grum> it uses shaders?
10:14 < Grum> https://github.com/Dav1dde/BraLa/blob/master/brala/engine.d#L152 <--
10:14 <+SirCmpwn> ah, that'd be a new thing
10:15 < Grum> also the comparison would be rather nonsensical
10:15 <+SirCmpwn> well, fair enough. Not sure why 1.2 support is important, though
10:15 < Grum> we could get 500% more fps if we just 'stop doing shit'
10:15 <+SirCmpwn> stop doing what shit
10:15 < Grum> just rendering 'world faces' is not the painful part atm
10:15 < jast> lighting
10:16 <+SirCmpwn> jesus, opengl 1.2 was released in 1998? 15 years ago?
10:16 <+SirCmpwn> why on earth are you supporting it?
10:16 < Grum> SirCmpwn: ~700000 people would cry otherwise?
10:16 < AlphaBlend> hah
10:16 < dx> minecraft is a really simple game that can run in very old hardware with no issues
10:16 <+SirCmpwn> let them cry, and then upgrade, and wipe away their tears with their extra frames
10:16 < Grum> dx: its actually far from simple
10:17 <+SirCmpwn> ^
10:17 < dx> Grum: that's exactly my point
10:17 < AlphaBlend> what about the old Power PC users? They sure are crying :P
10:17 < Grum> i also totally agree, for the new engine we're not supporting 1.x
10:17 <+SirCmpwn> I got a really, really shitty computer to run minecraft for seven seconds
10:17 < Grum> AlphaBlend: that was 'only' 0.6%
10:17 < dx> in >5 year old hardware it is FUCKING PAINFUL TO PLAY
10:18 < AlphaBlend> Grum: Ah, well with 10+ million purchases, that's still about 600,000 people
10:18 < AlphaBlend> wait
10:18 < Grum> yeah .. one less 0
10:18 < AlphaBlend> divide by 10
10:18 < AlphaBlend> yeah
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10:18 < Grum> 'acceptable' after lots of discussions
10:18 < AlphaBlend> yes i agree
10:18 < AlphaBlend> it had to go though
10:18 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: anyway, if you agree and are getting rid of 1.x support, then don't use that as ammunition against BraLa
10:18 < Grum> SirCmpwn: you cannot compare it though
10:19 <+SirCmpwn> why is that?
10:19 < Grum> because without opengl 2.x there is no way to do ANYTHING in parallel
10:19 <+md_5> btw
10:19 <+md_5> just saying
10:19 <+md_5> as long as section sign is supported
10:19 < Grum> glLists are serial, fact of life
10:19 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: alright, I'll compare it again when you drop 1.x
10:19 <+md_5> I dont really care for 1.6
10:19 <+SirCmpwn> md_5: section sign?
10:19 < Grum> md_5: it might be for 1.6.0
10:19 < Grum> we'll drop it asap though
10:20 <+ammar2> SirCmpwn: simolean
10:20 <+SirCmpwn> that shitty character no one likes?
10:20 < Grum> §
10:20  * md_5 will not complain as long as 1.6 has it for at least a month
10:20 <+SirCmpwn> oh, you want to continue using it for colors
10:20 < dx> that shitty character which is actually easy to integrate with stuff
10:20 <+SirCmpwn> hear, hear
10:20 < Grum> the one that is default on swedishkeyboards and therefor the only reason it exists
10:20 < dx> i have it as altgr-shift-s
10:21 <+SirCmpwn> I have it as ChatColors.ControlCharacter or something
10:21 <+SirCmpwn> because I never want to see it again
10:21 < dx> lol
10:21 < Grum> SirCmpwn: agreed
10:21 < Grum> i hate it
10:21 <+SirCmpwn> why not just use \0 or something
10:21 < Grum> i want to remove it
10:21 <+SirCmpwn> such a shitty choice
10:21 < Grum> i will remove it >:)
10:21 < Grum> its 100% random
10:21 < Grum> why not use % .....
10:21 <+Amaranth> SirCmpwn: But \0 means end of string :P
10:21 <+SirCmpwn> \0 can't be typed on any keyboard I'm familiar with
10:21 <+SirCmpwn> Amaranth: pascal strings are superior according to anyone with half a brain
10:22 < dx> Grum: i always assumed it wasn't an ascii character because those would need to be escaped too often
10:22 < jast> why not use 💩
10:22 <+Amaranth> SirCmpwn: Guess you didn't want a string longer than 255 characters?
10:22 < AlphaBlend> Grum: So I guess we will be able to colorize text while chatting, but not with that character?
10:22 < Grum> AlphaBlend: nope
10:22 < Grum> client cannot send colors
10:22 <+SirCmpwn> Amaranth: how about 65535
10:22 <+SirCmpwn> oh, haha, sorry, java
10:22 <+SirCmpwn> can't use 65535
10:22 < dx> client was never able to send colors, he wasn't talking about that
10:23 <+SirCmpwn> I forgot how bad java was for a few minutes
10:23 <+SirCmpwn> thanks for reminding me
10:23 <+Amaranth> SirCmpwn: Now you're wasting space for every character of your UTF-8 strings just so you can stick a length at the front
10:23 <+Amaranth> SirCmpwn: java actually has unsigned short for char
10:23 <+SirCmpwn> Amaranth: you're wasting a single byte
10:23 < Grum> whut you cant use Char.MAX_VALUE ? :/
10:23 <+SirCmpwn> oh, the humanity!
10:23 < Grum> sorry; Character.MAX_VALUE :P
10:23 <+Amaranth> SirCmpwn: Oh, you're saying use the first two bytes as the size :P
10:23 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: that's disgusting, can you really use "char" for unsigned 16 bit numbers?
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10:23 <+SirCmpwn> Amaranth: your zero is eliminated
10:23 < Grum> SirCmpwn: yes
10:24 <+SirCmpwn> Amaranth: net balance is -1 bytes
10:24 < Grum> SirCmpwn: and its horrible
10:24 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: not as bad as those stupid unsigned arithmetic methods they just added
10:24 < Grum> but then again, you do not know the language you work in if you think it is all perfect :p
10:24 < Grum> SirCmpwn: url? :)
10:24 < Grum> curious now :
10:24 < jast> does java support U+fffe, then?
10:24 <+SirCmpwn> let me see if I can find them, Grum
10:24 < Grum> \uFFFE
10:25 < jast> (or any of the supplementary planes?)
10:25 <+Amaranth> jast: Java is UCS-2, not UTF-16 if that is what you mean
10:25 < jast> lovely
10:25 < jast> so my suggestion of 💩 is right out
10:25 <+Amaranth> BMP only
10:25 < Grum> BMP?
10:25 <+Amaranth> Grum: Basic Multilingual Plane
10:25 < jast> IOW U+0000 to U+FFFF
10:26 <+Amaranth> I guess they have surrogate pairs
10:26 < jast> it's what you do if you want to support unicode half-heartedly
10:26 < Grum> and that is further than my 'knowledge' on that subject goes =)
10:26 <+Amaranth> But iirc that's a best effort thing since they started with plain UCS-2 and people made assumptions
10:27 < Grum> mm you can ask for UTF-16 encoding though
10:27 <+Amaranth> You end up with StringBuffer#reverse saying shit like this: "Note that the reverse operation may result in producing surrogate pairs that were unpaired low-surrogates and high-surrogates before the operation. For example, reversing "\uDC00\uD800" produces "\uD800\uDC00" which is a valid surrogate pair. "
10:27 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: example found: http://download.java.net/jdk8/docs/api/java/lang/Long.html#divideUnsigned(long, long)
10:28 <+SirCmpwn> java 8 will be adding "support" for unsigned integers
10:28 <+Amaranth> Only the boxed ones :/
10:28 < AlphaBlend> O_O oh how interesting
10:28 < AlphaBlend> Amaranth: boxed ones?
10:28 <+Amaranth> Oh, wait, that is a static method on unboxed longs
10:28 <+SirCmpwn> the quotes around "support" were intentional, Amaranth
10:28 <+Amaranth> So... that's cool
10:28 <+Amaranth> AlphaBlend: long vs Long
10:28 <+Amaranth> Long is a long boxed in an Object
10:28 <+SirCmpwn> not as cool as using actual unsigned numbers in any sensible language
10:29 < Grum> SirCmpwn: 'in since 1.0' :p
10:29 < Grum> i agree, we should have had unsigned stuff
10:29 < jast> protip: long is still signed
10:29 < Grum> i hate signed stuff ;(
10:29 < jast> aaand insanity.
10:29 <+Amaranth> Well it's all bits
10:29 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: in since 1.0?
10:29 < AlphaBlend> Amaranth: Oh... that's what you mean
10:29 < Grum> err sorry; i looked wrong
10:30 < AlphaBlend> Amaranth: Makes sense not to add a primitive since like java 10 will remove primitives
10:30 <+Amaranth> I love how java mixes versions around
10:30 < AlphaBlend> i think anyways
10:30 < Grum> public static long sum(long a, long b)
10:30 < Grum> Adds two long values together as per the + operator.
10:30 <+Amaranth> Java 8, JDK 8, Java 1.8, JDK 1.8
10:30 <+SirCmpwn> it's late, going to sleep. In conclusion, everything is stupid and you're doing it wrong
10:30 < Grum> gotto love that one too ;)
10:30 < Grum> AlphaBlend: yeah also stupid :P
10:30 < Grum> errr Amaranth
10:30 < jast> AbstractLongSummingProxyFactory
10:30 < jast> yay java
10:31 <+Amaranth> AlphaBlend: Java basically never breaks backwards compatibility
10:31 <+Amaranth> That's why their implementation of generics is so lame
10:31 < Grum> yup
10:31 < AlphaBlend> Grum: It's not standard to remove primitives at all >.>
10:31 <+Amaranth> Among other things
10:31 < Grum> i wish they'd break backwards compat already on some things
10:31 < jast> generics aren't lame. interfaces are lame.
10:31 -!- xy [xy@unaffiliated/xy] has joined #mcdevs
10:31 < AlphaBlend> lol
10:31 < Grum> i actually do not call it backwards compatibility but more forwards retardility :/
10:31 <+Amaranth> jast: Generics in Java don't actually exist
10:31 < jast> Grum: same difference
10:32 < Grum> its just compiler-time-hinting :/
10:32 < Grum> and type erasure is HORRID
10:32 < jast> well it's java :)
10:32 <+sadimusi> my favorite class in java's standard library: http://javadoc.bugaco.com/com/sun/java/swing/plaf/nimbus/InternalFrameInternalFrameTitlePaneInternalFrameTitlePaneMaximizeButtonPainter.html
10:32 < xy> "Channel is publicly logged as of Feb.25/13" - where is this logged to?
10:32 -!- TRocket [~TRocket@213.205.229.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
10:33 < Grum> java is also a really nice choice to code in though
10:33 -!- shoghicp [~shoghicp@77.225.6.14] has joined #mcdevs
10:33 < Grum> free cross-platform :p
10:33 <+Amaranth> sadimusi: Everyone points to that one
10:33 <+sadimusi> Amaranth: of course, it's probably the longest
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10:33 <+Amaranth> Grum: This used to be the place where I'd say C#
10:34 < AlphaBlend> meh, you can mix and match too right now which is silly
10:34 <+Amaranth> But then I learned the details of their memory model and now disagree with use of it
10:34 < AlphaBlend> boolean bl = Boolean.TRUE;
10:34 -!- Calinou [~Calinou@unaffiliated/calinou] has quit [Quit: Excess Flood]
10:34 <+SirCmpwn> oh, one more thing before I take my leave
10:34 < jast> plenty of things are more cross-platform than java, really
10:34 < Grum> Amaranth: hehe
10:34 < jast> for all the fun stuff you need native code libs anyway
10:34 <+SirCmpwn> Grum: if you change that silly value in 0xFE to be the protocol version, I'll give you pictures of boobs
10:34 < dx> pictures of SirCmpwn's boobs?
10:34 < Grum> SirCmpwn: i prefer to remain breathing
10:34 <+Amaranth> I _think_ C# and .NET may have been designed for Itanium since their memory model is a pretty close match to how that CPU works
10:34 < AlphaBlend> hahahaha
10:34 <+SirCmpwn> not my boobs, other people's glorious boobs
10:35 < dx> notch's boobs?
10:35 <+SirCmpwn> my boobs are small and unworthy of Grum's eyes
10:35 < dx> also
10:35 < dx> 05:28 < Grum> i actually do not call it backwards compatibility but more forwards retardility :/
10:35 < AlphaBlend> Notch is a God, his boobs cannot be seen
10:35 < dx> I LIKE THIS PHRASE
10:35 < Grum> Amaranth: meh just get faster hardware ;)
10:35 <+SirCmpwn> anyway, it's a simple change that makes quite a lot of people happy, and you get boobs from it
10:35 <+SirCmpwn> can't lose
10:35 <+SirCmpwn> good night
10:35 < Grum> dx: you gotto hate the language you love working in;)
10:36 < Grum> SirCmpwn: i'd die :P
10:36 <+Amaranth> Grum: What? I'm talking about the memory model which is only important wrt to multithreaded programs
10:36 <+Amaranth> Which these days means all non-trivial programs
10:36 < dx> Grum: oh, didn't even realize you were talking about the language, not the codebase
10:36 <+SirCmpwn> worth it, Grum
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10:36 < Grum> Amaranth: add moar hardware!
10:36 < jast> the only sane way to do multi-threaded code is to use message passing
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10:36 <+Amaranth> jast: So you're a fan of Go then
10:37 < jast> not really
10:37 < dx> erlang maybe
10:37 < Grum> absolutely no cost involved with the message-passing-framework :p
10:37 <+Amaranth> The Java, C, and C++ memory models are great for multithreaded development though
10:37 < dx> but message passing for multithreading is rather generic
10:37 < jast> and if the runtime optimizes that using shared memory, all the better. as long as you don't have to mess with mutexes and shit and fill it to the brim with subtle deadlocks and races
10:38 < dx> deadlocks are fun
10:38 <+Amaranth> Java 1.5, C11, and C++11 anyway
10:38 < dx> do you really want to miss the fun of debugging threading related bugs
10:38 < dx> why would you use message passing
10:38 <+Amaranth> The phrase was "sequentially consistent except for data races" or something like that
10:38 < jast> as far as I'm concerned, concurrency based on message-passing is the only way to make concurrency not stupidly hard
10:39 < dx> jast: the code in charge of message passing will have to use something like mutexes, right? (but nicely abstracted)
10:39 < jast> condition variables seem to be a sane approach, too
10:40 < jast> dx: it will have to do *some* kind of synchronization, yes... unless you want to make it rather inefficient
10:40 < dx> heh
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10:40 <+Amaranth> jast: Having message passing doesn't remove the need for some kind of defined memory model
10:40 < Grum> synchronization is totally free ;)
10:40 <+Amaranth> Except now instead of talking about read/write reordering you're talking about channel communication reordering
10:40 < jast> message passing is conceptually shared-nothing (you can only exchange data via messages)
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10:41 < jast> well, depending on the implementation, messages are guaranteed to arrive in-order
10:41 <+Amaranth> jast: What happens if the compiler or CPU reorders my code to move a write above a read on a channel?
10:41 < Grum> btw, its not very unlikely that we'll start using an integerbased coordinate system rather than doubles/floats we're doing now for things like entity-positions :P
10:41 < jast> what happens if the compiler or CPU inserts "crash kernel" statements
10:41 <+md_5> Amaranth did you ever manage to work around this jline bug? http://screencloud.net/v/1Sfd
10:41 < Grum> drool on that ;)
10:42 <+Amaranth> md_5: Probably not
10:42 <+Amaranth> Grum: So each block is now 16 units?
10:42 <+Amaranth> Or was it 8, I forget
10:42 < Grum> 256 likely
10:42 < dx> Amaranth: do compilers or CPUs really do that? i mean i have no idea how can someone get away with that kind of aggressive optimization without breaking stuff
10:42 <+Amaranth> dx: Absolutely PowerPC and ARM do that
10:42 < jast> compilers and CPUs *do* execute statements out-of-order
10:43 < jast> but only if there is no effective difference
10:43 <+Amaranth> jast: That isn't quite true
10:43 <+Amaranth> They don't know there is a difference because they cannot detect data races
10:44 <+Amaranth> You have to be able to treat message reads/writes as barriers in order to be able to sanely reason about the execution of your program
10:44 <+Amaranth> So you need your language to define them as such
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10:45 < jast> reads *do* wait, of course. nothing else makes sense.
10:46 <+Amaranth> jast: It's not about them waiting, it's about whether or not the compiler or CPU moves them around
10:46 < jast> I can't quite imagine an example for which it would
10:46 < Grum> Amaranth: we're having too many .... 'errors' because of loss or precision :/
10:46 < Grum> so using an integerbased system totally kills all of those things
10:46 <+Amaranth> jast: http://herbsutter.com/2013/02/11/atomic-weapons-the-c-memory-model-and-modern-hardware/
10:47 <+Amaranth> Grum: In my testing this was not your problem with mobs glitching through walls
10:47 < dx> lol url slugs removing the ++ part out of C++
10:47 < Grum> Amaranth: oh that is probably just because of bad collision code
10:47 < jast> I don't have time to watch lenghty videos right now
10:47 <+Amaranth> iirc the reason they go through walls client side is because of bad collision detection and motion prediction
10:47 < AlphaBlend> Grum: At any rate, to my previous ranting, do w/e you do in order that modders have no issues with each other
10:48 < Grum> modders will always have issues
10:48 <+Amaranth> AlphaBlend: There will always be conflicts
10:48 < Grum> because modders only hack on shit rather than doing constructive things =)
10:48 < AlphaBlend> Grum: It seems Mojang is catering to those who don't develop Minecraft, rather than themselves, but that goes to show they care about the people who buy the game
10:48 < Grum> AlphaBlend: what? that makes no sense
10:48 < AlphaBlend> well
10:48 < Grum> we're catering very heavily towards ourselves
10:49 < Grum> we need these things, we do not really care much if others do
10:49 <+Amaranth> I hope in the modern mojang plugin API world they do things like have individual plugins for ores and such and treat them as libraries
10:49 <+Amaranth> Then I remember this is the real world and get sad
10:49 < AlphaBlend> it seems that most game publishers make features that they only think up, and only develop seemingly for themselves
10:49 < AlphaBlend> Grum: Yes, but you're doing this so that modders can mod the game, in the long haul
10:49 < Grum> Amaranth: the idea is to ship ....... SO MANY PLUGINS it'll make you cry
10:49 < Grum> in 1 plugin :P
10:49 < jast> yes! make _everything_ a plugin! kill performance!
10:50 < AlphaBlend> hahaha
10:50 < Grum> why would that kill performance?
10:50 <+Amaranth> jast: Multiple plugins with a dependency graph doesn't mean lower performance than one monolithic plugin that includes all the same features
10:50 < jast> it's not the number of plugins, but the number of hooks hooked into and such
10:50 < Grum> hooks?
10:51 < Grum> hooks are the things the people who do not design a system to be extendable use
10:51 < Grum> aka: every known minecraft system sofar
10:51 <+Amaranth> Grum: err, signals/slots, events, callbacks, whatever you want to call them are the way the world works
10:52 < Grum> didn't we once upon a time talk about my idea Amaranth?
10:52 < jast> the more stuff is made pluggable within inner loops, the more KILL PERFORMANCE!
10:52 <+Amaranth> I don't think so
10:52 < Grum> quite sure we did :P
10:52 < AlphaBlend> This is what will contrast Minecraft from numerous other games, it will be compartmentalized!
10:53 < AlphaBlend> There is this chat program I use for Battle.Net
10:54 < AlphaBlend> the devs, had they continued development, which they did not because b.net kinda died and they lost interest, would have made all the features plugin-oriented, so you could disable some if you didn't need their functionality
10:54 < jast> suppose I want a plugin that extends the behaviour of, say, smooth stone blocks... now I have to somehow get my plugin behaviour get called whenever something happens to a smooth stone block
10:54 < AlphaBlend> not a new concept, but it's pretty nice
10:54 < jast> maybe I want to render polka dots on a random subset of smooth stone blocks
10:54 <+Amaranth> jast: I think Grum's idea was you'd replace the smooth stone block plugin instead
10:54 <+Amaranth> Which doesn't go well with plugins working together
10:55 < jast> yep
10:55 < Grum> erm not really
10:55 <+Amaranth> You need the ability to do that and you need events like Bukkit has now
10:55 < Grum> you'd just register the behavior you want to have called
10:55 <+Amaranth> Well, maybe not like Bukkit has not but a similar system :P
10:55 < dx> register behavior you want to have called? so... hooks?
10:55 < jast> exactly. and now everything registers a shit ton of behaviours and we have lots of call lists to go through
10:55 < Grum> Amaranth: seen how we did dispensers?
10:55 <+Amaranth> Grum: Not everything can be dispensers
10:56 <+Amaranth> d'oh, you beat me
10:56 < Grum> yes everything can be dispeners
10:56 < AlphaBlend> MEMORY SCREAMS!
10:56 <+Amaranth> jast: That is the way programs work though
10:56 < Grum> jast: not really? :/
10:56  * AlphaBlend hears the cries from the computer
10:56 < jast> Amaranth: ikr
10:56 <+Amaranth> Either you hard code everything or you have lists of callbacks
10:56 <+Amaranth> jast: I'm being serious
10:56 < Grum> right now we do both and static
10:56 < Grum> Amaranth: what cant you do dispenserstyle?
10:57 < Grum> (besides 'external input')
10:57 < jast> all enterprisey software starts with a simple thought: hey, let's make everything dynamically extensible
10:57 < dx> the minecraft world isn't made out of blocks, it's made out of dispensers
10:57 < Grum> jast: but that is not what we're doing at all
10:57 <+Amaranth> Grum: Make mobs randomly love each other
10:57 < jast> and before you know it, slow mess of unmaintainable
10:57 <+Amaranth> jast: You're not providing alternatives
10:57 < Grum> Amaranth: that is AI Behavior, as AI should apply to entities, add that behavior to all the applicable mobs and done?
10:58 < jast> that's right
10:58 <+Amaranth> jast: So you disagree with the idea of mods and plugins and think the game should just be the game and that's the end of it?
10:58 < jast> the alternative is to not make _everything_ pluggable
10:58 < Grum> which is what we have now
10:58 < Grum> 100% static game
10:58 < jast> but to be fairly selective about it
10:58 < jast> and there will always be a trade-off
10:58 <+Amaranth> Grum: Except not, blocks are almost pluggable
10:59 < Grum> they arent
10:59 < Grum> they are 100% hardcoded
10:59 <+Amaranth> I've certainly dynamically replaced a block's implementation
10:59 < dx> jast: "fairly selective" is what bukkit does then, where you get 10% of the plugins breaking on every release because they don't have the APIs they need
11:00 < Grum> Amaranth: yes replaced ... not added
11:00 < jast> yeah well, you can't solve all problems
11:00 < jast> welcome to real life
11:00 <+Amaranth> Grum: I can't add more because of the protocol :P
11:00 < dx> the mod api wants to solve all problems
11:00 < jast> that's the way of enterprisey
11:00 < Grum> Amaranth: adding blocks via a protocol? lal :P
11:00 < dx> maybe
11:00 < Grum> erm we're not at all solving all problems with the plugin api
11:01 <+Amaranth> Grum: I mean I can add more but they'll crash the client
11:01 < Grum> we're solving the problems WE need to solve to remake the game
11:01 <+Amaranth> Because there is no protocol to tell the client what they are
11:01 <+md_5> Amaranth well I poked the jline developers about that bug, the one guy who just came active on the project seems nice
11:01 < jast> if you want to go _really_ enterprisey, you make the whole plugin architecture distributed, i.e. you connect a polkadotsmoothstone server to the game server to alter its behaviour :p
11:01 < Grum> jast: OSGI
11:01 < AlphaBlend> Grum: Are you keeping the client dumb, where it can only handle so much data for given things, before it crashes?
11:01 < Grum> over the wire!
11:02 < AlphaBlend> Grum: I.E. inventory title > 32 characters
11:02 <+Amaranth> jast: The bukkit plugin loader lets you chain plugin loaders :D
11:02 <+md_5> plz no osgi
11:02 < TobiX> Is minecraft getting a Spring configuration file? *gd&r*
11:02 < Grum> osgi is the way!
11:02 < dx> AlphaBlend: "are you going to fix the thousands of ways the server can crash a client?"
11:02 < Grum> TobiX: actually we might add that eventually
11:02  * md_5 cuts Grum 
11:02 <+Amaranth> dx: A disconnect for a failed assertion is not a crash
11:03 < Grum> omg the code compiles again
11:03 < dx> Amaranth: there are many issues, not all of them are asserts
11:03 < jast> a failed assertion is something that isn't supposed to happen, 'nuff said
11:03 < dx> jast: i'm talking about the server sending the client crap, so yes it should :P
11:04 < jast> no
11:04 < AlphaBlend> dx: apparently "so much data for given things" wasn't generic enough for you not to post a suggestive quote :(
11:04 < jast> failed assertions indicate coding errors in the system that throws the assertion
11:04 < jast> *assertion failure
11:04 < dx> AlphaBlend: lolwat
11:05 < jast> a client should be resilient against protocol errors and stuff
11:05 < TobiX> jast: Or crummy assertions. Which is also a coding error ;)
11:05 < AlphaBlend> dx: You merely quoted something I could have said, but I said it essentially, in a way, although it was quite subtle
11:06 < dx> AlphaBlend: well not really a quote, but yes. so uhm, sorry?
11:06 <+Amaranth> I'm okay with the client bailing when you send it invalid data and with the server kicking a client when it gets invalid data
11:06 < AlphaBlend> dx: No need, but thanks for the suggestion!
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11:06 < dx> AlphaBlend: i'm confused now :D
11:06 < jast> assertions are for developers, not end users
11:06 < jast> if you want to bail, show an actual human-friendly error
11:07 < AlphaBlend> dx: I... nvm! I'll clean up my wording in the future!
11:07 <+Amaranth> This is arguing details, not ideas :P
11:07 < dx> AlphaBlend: nah, it's perfectly okay to say things in a subtle way.
11:07 < jast> my ideas are irrelevant to minecraft
11:08 < AlphaBlend> jast: Do you sanitize parameters to methods, even if your arguments will be sane 100% of the time?
11:08 < jast> no
11:08 < AlphaBlend> oh
11:08 < AlphaBlend> if you were in a group, would you then?
11:09 < jast> but I do sanitize external input, such as network messages
11:09 < jast> no. I work with sane people.
11:09 < AlphaBlend> hah
11:09 < AlphaBlend> yeah
11:09 < AlphaBlend> that makes sense
11:09 <+Amaranth> jast: This is a problem with minecraft, input sanitization is a part of processing the input
11:09 < AlphaBlend> minecraft client does not sanitize that :(
11:09 <+Amaranth> shotgun parsing
11:10 < AlphaBlend> it's just like, "Oh, NO U, *POOF*"
11:10 < AlphaBlend> Amaranth: Moar CPUs, that's why it doesn't sanitize input?
11:10 -!- Calinou [~Calinou@unaffiliated/calinou] has joined #mcdevs
11:10 <+Amaranth> AlphaBlend: No no, I mean it doesn't sanitize it in the networking layer
11:11 <+Amaranth> Aside from ensuring you've sent the correct amount of data
11:11 < AlphaBlend> ah
11:12 <+Amaranth> It does generally end up sanitized just a little bit here and a little bit there as it processes it and it relies on exceptions to deal with sanitization failures
11:13 < AlphaBlend> right, like sending a string where an int is expected
11:13 -!- BizarreCake [~BizarreCa@46.121.251.157] has joined #mcdevs
11:14 -!- conehead [~conehead@unaffiliated/conehead] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]
11:19 < AlphaBlend> at any rate
11:19 < AlphaBlend> kind of feel bad for Mojang since minecraft was not really anywhere near read for the mod API when work started to prepare it, and it's still not really near, although it's gotten a lot closer
11:19 < AlphaBlend> s/read/ready
11:21 <+md_5> feel bad for mojang?
11:21 -!- Paprikachu [~Paprikach@80.120.175.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:21 <+md_5> you know they are already making a profit off scrolls?
11:21 <+md_5> something like 2 years dev costs recouped in a week
11:22 < AlphaBlend> heh, i suppose it's fun in a way
11:23 < AlphaBlend> i mean, the work they're doing for minecraft
11:23 < dx> md_5: sorry, but finding java developers in stockholm is extremely hard
11:23 <+md_5> yes
11:23 <+md_5> dx there are none, its too cold for us
11:23 <+md_5> java developers need warm climates
11:23 < dx> yeah must be that
11:23 < AlphaBlend> lol
11:23 <+ammar2> md_5: java "developers"
11:24 <+md_5> <md_5> .g java developers stockholm
11:24 <+md_5> <CafeBabe> (md_5) http://www.jobsinstockholm.com/it/ -- IT & Technology | Jobs in Stockholm - Sweden: "4 June - Senior Java Developer - Payments, Stockholm. Not available for this job.   - ns -. King 4 June - Backend Java Developer, Stockholm. Not..."
11:24 <+md_5> hum
11:24 <+md_5> not what I expected
11:24  * md_5 srhug
11:24 < dx> deadbabe
11:25 < AlphaBlend> im glad i got into ja va
11:25 <+md_5> I love how her first result is the bottom of the page on my google
11:25 < AlphaBlend> java*
11:25 <+md_5> AlphaBlend tbh job oppurtunties are not that great unless you are versed in java ee
11:25 < AlphaBlend> basically didn't know anything when i joined the development team for the minecraft community i'm a part of
11:25 <+md_5> opportunities
11:25 <+Amaranth> md_5: You live in your own google bubble
11:25 < AlphaBlend> but i learned gradually
11:25 < dx> google bubbles are fun
11:25 < AlphaBlend> and i'm not a master, nor too proficient, but i know more than enough to get by in our team
11:26 <+md_5> hm
11:26 <+md_5> Rovio has a swedish office
11:26 < AlphaBlend> learned a lot more OO than I did before playing with java
11:26 <+md_5> http://www.rovio.com/en/careers/Open-positions/view/197/game-programmers-stockholm
11:26 <+md_5> I'm sure they need java guys
11:26 <+Amaranth> Probably not really
11:27 <+ammar2> md_5: well yeah, they're based in sweeden, naturally they'd have an office there :P
11:27 < Fador> umm
11:27 < Fador> <- Finnish
11:27 < AlphaBlend> you guys have kept me up from going to bed
11:27 < AlphaBlend> grats
11:27 <+Amaranth> They probably have one guy who knows java/android enough to hook their game up to some basic framework and that's it
11:27 < Fador> Finland != Sweden
11:27 <+Amaranth> Not like they make "android" apps
11:28 < dx> Amaranth: so they use NDK for everything?
11:28 <+Amaranth> Yeah
11:29 <+ammar2> Fador: pretty much the same thing, sweeden is the shaft, finland is the ballsack. http://i.imgur.com/gaw0sQv.gif
11:29 <+md_5> doesnt matter
11:29 <+md_5> there is NOT a shortage of devs there
11:29 < dx> ammar2: >sweeden
11:29 <+ammar2> dx: hush
11:30 < Fador> ammar2 ...;D
11:30 <+Amaranth> DICE is there, could poach some of their guys
11:30 <+Amaranth> Learning java isn't hard
11:30 < dx> if you mean that it isn't hard for people with experience with languages like C++, then yes
11:30 <+ammar2> Amaranth: if you're gonna rewrite, may as well dump java since apparently no one cares about anything that doesn't directly affect vanilla and or map makers
11:31 -!- mode/#mcdevs [+v Fador] by ChanServ
11:31 <+Amaranth> ammar2: I'd do C++ with lua for addons
11:31 <+Amaranth> Groundbreaking, I know
11:31 < dx> lol lua
11:31 <+ammar2> Amaranth: but lua has 1 indexed arrays :(
11:31  * AlphaBlend raises an ear
11:31 <+Amaranth> ammar2: Modders are used to it :P
11:32 < SinZ> I like how everytime Gru.m talks here, a huge argument happens
11:33 < dx> well, grum raised a lot of strong points too
11:33 <+ammar2> yeah, like how they cleverly got around string.format's incredible cost with json encoding
11:33 <+md_5> thats because we all hate what mojang is doing
11:33 <+md_5> you could write an optimized formatter?
11:33 < dx> i mean, just read this stuff: http://dump.dequis.org/kfUcV.png
11:34 <+md_5> thats more dots than when evilseph cracked the shits at me
11:34 <+md_5> and he had a fair few dots
11:34 < Grum> ammar2: that is not the point
11:34 <+md_5> seems mojangstas like expressing their frustration with dots
11:34 <+ammar2> Grum: it was a joke, relax. :P
11:34 < AlphaBlend> so do i!
11:35 <+ammar2> but you didn't respond to my other thing, let me up arrow
11:35 <+ammar2> Grum: so even if you do stick with client based translation, why bother with json, you could switch to a markdown like format for colours and do an additional packet or send a boolean in the chat packet which sends the translation key and number and types of parameters to be formatted with
11:35 < Grum> because we need nested structure
11:35 < Grum> and nothing really trivially supports that
11:36 < dx> and here we are again with the argument of "we won't write a simple markup parser because it takes more than 5 minutes"
11:36 < AlphaBlend> well
11:36 < Grum> no
11:36 < Grum>  writing a markup parser doent take 5 minutes
11:37 <+ammar2> because someone has already done the hard work of writing the parser for you :)
11:37 < AlphaBlend> i suppose you need something that doesn't require a lot of processing, not merely convenient for modders, right?
11:37 <+ammar2> Grum: got any examples of these complex nested structures that apparently nothing else can do?
11:37 < Grum> we need something that is flexible and nestable
11:37 <+md_5> ammar2 nope, but they will arise
11:37 <+md_5> trust me
11:37 < AlphaBlend> as right now the server has to parse the chat message looking for chat colors and then parsing them into what they should be
11:37 <+md_5> I already showed them my nested array format
11:37 <+md_5> now good enough apparently
11:37 < Grum> ammar2: /give returns a player + item, the item is localized too within a localized string
11:38 < Grum> aka nesting
11:38 < Grum> we do not add it because we 'think it is nice' -- we added it because it turned out to be a requirement
11:38 < AlphaBlend> like if you mirror java's String.format() where you parameterize input and send it to the server, the server doesn't need to do too much
11:38 < Grum> then we figured; well we miht as well use json for it, all of the other shit we'll do structured will be json anyhow
11:38 < AlphaBlend> it's stuff like that i'd understand
11:39 < Grum> what?
11:39 < Grum> nothing of this is for client->server
11:39 < Grum> its purely server->client
11:39 < AlphaBlend> oh
11:39 <+Amaranth> btw if you used server based translations you could switch to gettext too, bonus :P
11:39 <+md_5> essentials 3 uses gettext
11:39 <+md_5> :p
11:39 < Grum> gettext?
11:39 < Grum> you mean the 'standard' with .po files (orso?)
11:40 <+md_5> oh come on, didnt you do C programming gru.m
11:40 < AlphaBlend> i suppose that doesn't really matter anyways, my goal was simply saying parameterizing data
11:40 < Grum> nope i havent
11:40 <+md_5> yes that
11:40 <+ammar2> Grum: thisis what you had in your /give example https://gist.github.com/Dinnerbone/5631634#file-gistfile1-json-L18
11:40 < Grum> yeah. which is not really an option
11:40 < Grum> ammar2: that example was done before we realized we needed it
11:41 < Grum> 'stone' should be another {translate: item.stone} entry
11:41 < Grum> actually, that is not true
11:41 < Grum> the example is simply incomplete
11:41 < Grum> and false :P
11:41 < Grum> but still working nevertheless
11:42 <+md_5> > delete / edit it then
11:42 < Grum> why?
11:42 < Grum> conveys the intention well enough
11:42 < dx> gists are git repos, you can use them like that
11:42 <+ammar2> and what's stopping you from doing that without json? 'chat packet which sends the translation key and number and types of parameters' the type can be 'translation', the parameter can be 'item.stone'
11:43 < Grum> BECAUSE IT HAS TO BE NESTED
11:43 < Grum> stop being dense
11:43 < Grum> jezus
11:43 < Grum> also, we do send it completely minified
11:44 <+md_5> am I the only one who doesnt care about json at this stage?
11:44 < Grum> seems like it
11:44 <+md_5> I have the simolean stuff until at least 1.6.1
11:44 < Grum> you *may* have it
11:44 <+md_5> well if I dont, then I'll go back to caring :p
11:44 <+Amaranth> Is this where I come in and say protobuf? ;)
11:45 < Grum> Amaranth: you can but pointless without a major overhaul
11:45 <+md_5> no
11:45 <+md_5> thats stupid
11:45 < Grum> yes
11:45 < Grum> i'm not going to invest time into it when it gains us nothing
11:48 <+ammar2> because you've been investing time pretty carefully for the last year huh, the progress is astounding
11:48 < Grum> ammar2: feel free to attempt to do it better
11:49 <+ammar2> sure, hire me
11:49 < Grum> why?
11:49 < Grum> just code, you have the source
11:49 < Grum> go make it better.
11:49 <+md_5> ....
11:49 <+ammar2> "source"
11:49 <+md_5> w0t
11:49 <+ammar2> hahaha
11:49 < dx> "source"
11:49 <+md_5> Grum plz
11:49 < Grum> i dont see the problem
11:49 <+md_5> stahp
11:49 < dx> this guy
11:49 < Grum> there is barely any difference between that and what we work in >.>
11:49 < AlphaBlend> use MCP
11:49 < dx> Grum: you're good at this
11:49 < dx> Grum: congratulations
11:49 < Grum> mcp is actually better documented than our source >.>
11:49 < Grum> and i'm not kidding
11:49 < AlphaBlend> LOL
11:49 < SinZ> Grum: btw, with the new launcher, if you set the game directory on your profile to not .minecraft, Assets don't get loaded
11:49 < Calinou> Grum: true story
11:50 <+md_5> Grum if that was true and there was *any* likelyhood of you accepting patches I would have spammed stuff @ you
11:50 < Grum> Dinnerbone: ^^ SinZ
11:50 < Calinou> now, how about unobfuscating the source
11:50 < Calinou> let's see his answer
11:50 < Grum> md_5: for useless shit :)
11:50 < AlphaBlend> lol
11:50 < AlphaBlend> Calinou: Troll, go away
11:50 <+md_5> common sense stuff like dimensions being an int in one packet and byte in another
11:50 < AlphaBlend> :(
11:50 <+md_5> how is that useless.
11:50 < Calinou> no u
11:50 < Grum> md_5: i'll make the other one a byte
11:51 < Grum> also shrinks the protocol, problem solved.
11:51 <+md_5> D:
11:51 < AlphaBlend> Calinou: I've been in discussions where you presented that idea, and they didn't go nicely :\
11:51 < Calinou> of course
11:51 < Calinou> Binnerdone is the MP3 fanboy in our screwed up family
11:51 <+md_5> removing a space from 1 in every every 100 chat packets would shrink it more
11:51 < Grum> we'll stop obfuscating large parts of the source, not now though
11:51 < dx> common sense stuff like Grum's most loved feature request, packet length headers
11:51 <+md_5> um
11:51 <+md_5> if you stop obfuscating part
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11:52 <+md_5> why wouldnt you do it all
11:52 < Grum> md_5: because you do not need to see the source of 'the other things'
11:52 < Calinou> ^
11:52 < Calinou> eg. how deadmau5 has ears
11:52 <+md_5>  there will be people that need to
11:52 < Grum> we'd also very likely hand out the source of things that is not obfuscated
11:52 < Grum> or rather; make them public
11:52 < Grum> md_5: fuck those people
11:52 < AlphaBlend> Calinou: i think it was less humorous than when pbunny threw his ideas at Grum about an all-chunks-loaded-minecraft-server
11:52 < Calinou> lol
11:53 < dx> 06:49 < Grum> md_5: because you do not need to see the source of 'the other things'
11:53 < dx> 06:46 < Grum> just code, you have the source
11:53 < dx> 06:46 < Grum> there is barely any difference between that and what we work in >.>
11:53 < Grum> dx: mcp == source
11:53 < SinZ> it is close enough to the source
11:53 < dx> Grum: what was the reason to not deobfuscate again?
11:54 < AlphaBlend> Grum: Does Searge get his mappings from you guys or does he use some code magic that is self aware type stuff?
11:54 < Grum> .java files compiles to a workable minecraft, less excuses, go majorly improve it without breaking backwards compat 1000 times without reason
11:54 < Grum> AlphaBlend: i mail the mappings to him every snapshot
11:54 < dx> 05:28 < Grum> i actually do not call it backwards compatibility but more forwards retardility :/
11:54 < Calinou> dx: Binnerdone said "performance"
11:54 <+Amaranth> Fun fact, making up names for things based on what they do gets you better names than Mojang has a large amount of the time :P
11:54 < Calinou> (lol'd)
11:54 < Grum> Amaranth: true
11:54 <+md_5> mcp is nothing like the source
11:54 < AlphaBlend> Grum: That raises questions I don't think I want to ask :(
11:54 < Grum> md_5: its better >.>
11:54 <+md_5> there are plenty of unmapped methods
11:54 < Grum> yeah there are also lots of useless methods
11:54 <+md_5> func_12342_a is useless to me
11:54 < SinZ> like GuiMainMenu
11:54 < Grum> and we have utterly shitty names too
11:55 < dx> Grum: backwards compatibility is not an argument with the current codebase
11:55 < AlphaBlend> well
11:55 < SinZ> that class has alot of unmapped functions
11:55 <+md_5> not as shit as func_randomNumber_randomLetter
11:55 < Grum> dx: that was for java the language, nothing codebase
11:55 <+Amaranth> md_5: That's probably one of those ones called something like "heyImYourNeighbor" :P
11:55 < dx> Grum: i know, but it's relevant in this case
11:55 < Grum> dx: we try to keep the breaks as grouped as possible
11:56 < Grum> so not to break it 10 times in a row
11:56 < Grum> but rather break it one time *really* badly
11:56 <+Amaranth> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~sergey/langsec/occupy/
11:56 <+Amaranth> Somewhat related, dx was talking about protocol stuff :P
11:56 < AlphaBlend> Grum: My question about you mailing Searge those mappings is simply why obfuscate when you support mailing the mappings to him? If this starts an argument, I'll quickly back down
11:57 <+md_5> AlphaBlend I was shocked when  I learnt that
11:57 <+md_5> its such a waste of time
11:57 < dx> Amaranth: wait what
11:57 <+Amaranth> dx: They argue against things like length fields
11:57 < Grum> Amaranth: is the obfuscation a real problem?
11:57 < Grum> i mean, for Bukkit, is it a HUGE problem that is absolutely making your work impossibly hard?
11:58 <+Amaranth> Grum: Well, it costs me a day every time you update :P
11:58 < AlphaBlend> Grum: Take from your experience with Bukkit and updating to new minecraft versions
11:58 < Grum> AlphaBlend: i couldn't care less
11:58 < AlphaBlend> i suppose so
11:58 < Grum> the breaks we had were because of structural changes not obfuscation
11:58 -!- r04r|away is now known as r04r
11:58 < AlphaBlend> oh
11:58 < Grum> yeah, because we refactor things or move them around; that causes breaks; not the obfuscation itself
11:59 < AlphaBlend> Amaranth: AT any rate, better thank Grum for his hand-me-down tools you guys use :D
11:59 < dx> it also means there are no bukkit releases for snapshots... except some builds from suspicious sources
11:59 <+md_5> because ofc mojang gave you the mappins
11:59 <+md_5> dx hey I wouldnt call them suspcious, I wrote an entire program to make them
11:59 <+Amaranth> AlphaBlend: Oh god the perl
11:59 < AlphaBlend> dx: Find faith in Spigot then
11:59 < Grum> dx: because bukkit hasn't evolved to use patches and is rather big
11:59 <+Amaranth> Grum: Single largest mod there is afaik
11:59 < Grum> md_5: we never actually used any mappings
11:59 < Grum> except for naming new classes
12:00 <+Amaranth> I use the mappings from Mojang for hints as to naming... what he said
12:00 < dx> md_5: i mean, the way the bukkit unofficial builds are distributed is often shady
12:00 < Grum> if bukkit were to migrate to a patch-based-system on the mcp-naming-scheme updating from obfuscation-changes would be minutes not hours
12:00 < Grum> but we're still talking ~4-5hrs for obfuscation
12:00 <+md_5> not saying I havent suggested that
12:01 < Grum> nothing on the grand scale of things
12:01 < Grum> so, apparently Amaranth isn't super bothered with obfuscation, Searge, LexManos and cpw aren't either; so why the f*ck do you guys whine so much?
12:02 <+md_5> because those are 4 people, and one of them has a job that consists of only dealing with obfuscation
12:02 < AlphaBlend> me, it's purely on a want-to-know basis, i just mainly go with the flow anyways
12:02 < AlphaBlend> i don't really care tbh
12:03 <+Amaranth> Also I'm not dealing with it anymore so I'm of course not bothered :P
12:03 < AlphaBlend> it's just something that makes me realllllllly curious
12:03 < Grum> frankly, we're keeping it because i'm saying that we're keeping it
12:03 < dx> Grum: we originally started the deobfuscation discussion the last time because you often tell us to implement stuff that you can't be bothered to write, and we have no legal way to do so
12:04 < Grum> we'll drop it when we're moving towards using the api for our game for the parts that use the api (and the api itself obviously)
12:04 <+Amaranth> dx: Being deobfuscated wouldn't make it legal
12:04 < dx> most of the time it turns into "write a reference implementation with MCP and we'll rewrite it"
12:04 < dx> Amaranth: it can be legal if a license is applied
12:04 < Grum> its not legal ever
12:04 < AlphaBlend> Grum: Mainly so people don't rip Mojang off, right? I mean, there had to be a reason in the beginning to obfuscate it
12:04 < Grum> AlphaBlend: not really, mainly because i said so
12:04 < Grum> (oh i also wont change my mind ;D)
12:05 < AlphaBlend> Well, you weren't around when Notch was working on it and would obfuscate it himself, so it's mainly an inherited trait o.o
12:05 < Grum> yes it is
12:05 < Grum> and until we're at a cleaner sourcebase, i dont see any benefit to Mojang changing it
12:05 <+ammar2> aah yes the age old no benefit to mojang argument
12:05 <+ammar2> we've gone full circle again
12:05 < Grum> when we're using the api ourselves to build the game, it will be an awesome demonstration of how to use the api to get things done, which is why i then do agree it makes sense
12:05 < AlphaBlend> uhhh, that almost sounds as if it was left unobfuscated, people would laugh at the code :P
12:06 < Grum> AlphaBlend: yes
12:06 <+md_5> we know your code is shit
12:06 <+ammar2> AlphaBlend: we already do
12:06 <+md_5> so it doesnt change anything
12:06 < AlphaBlend> our code is just....
12:06 < AlphaBlend> GAH
12:06 < AlphaBlend> better, but still
12:06 < Grum> md_5: so why change it if it doesnt change anything
12:06 < dx> "MCP shows everything" "deobfuscating it would show things you don't want to see"
12:06 < dx> makes perfect sense.
12:06 < AlphaBlend> lol
12:07 < Calinou> dx: read: it shows ponies
12:07 < AlphaBlend> ohhh yesssssss
12:07 < AlphaBlend> "// Searge ftw, lol
12:07 < Calinou> <ammar2> aah yes the age old no benefit to mojang argument
12:07 < Calinou> hey, why does linux sucks afterall
12:07 < dx> AlphaBlend: it's still compiled, won't show comments
12:07 < Calinou> no benefit to port apps to it!
12:07 < Calinou> :phoronix rolleyes:
12:08 <+Amaranth> Grum: With obfuscation no one will ever see your ASCII art comments :D
12:08 < AlphaBlend> dx: Well, I was merely referring to the decompiled code and after MCP adds comments to it
12:08 <+Amaranth> Well, I guess they still wouldn't
12:08 < dx> AlphaBlend: oh that
12:09 < dx> 07:01 < Grum> its not legal ever
12:09 < dx> Grum: why not? it will be if you put a proper license
12:10 <+ammar2> Amaranth: step 1. make jvm proposal to add bytecode instruction for comments, step 2. strip comment stripping from javac, step 3. wait till changes propogate to mojang
12:11 < AlphaBlend> purely for aesthetics, because aesthetics rule
12:11 < dx> don't they compile for java 6? good luck getting new bytecode instructions
12:11 < AlphaBlend> hah
12:11 < AlphaBlend> java 8
12:11 <+ammar2> dx: wait patiently.
12:11 < dx> very patiently.
12:13 < dx> ammar2: think we'll get minecraft compiled against java 8 before grum decides to stop keeping obfuscation because he "said so"?
12:14 <+ammar2> dx: we'll sooner have half life 3 ;)
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12:14 < dx> hmm, if we could predict the existence of java 15, then we could safely confirm half life 3
12:15 < dx> let's hope oracle doesn't go bankrupt any time soon
12:15 <+md_5> oh its nearly lunch time in sweden
12:15  * md_5 wonders what mojang has coded this morning
12:15 <+md_5> HELL OF A LOT surely
12:15 < Grum> i've fixed lots of missing textures =)
12:15 < AlphaBlend> md_5: So how's that move from bukkit to MCP going?
12:15 < Grum> while listening to some weird people whine on irc ;)
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12:16 <+md_5> AlphaBlend nicely did a lot of work today
12:16 <+md_5> designed our new config
12:16 <+md_5> and cleaned up some stuff
12:16 < AlphaBlend> md_5: I saw the thread on your forums a bit late, but I wanted to see it at some point
12:16 < AlphaBlend> we used to use spigot
12:16 < AlphaBlend> i mean well
12:16 < AlphaBlend> no
12:16 <+md_5> next stage will be porting to the new config
12:16 <+md_5> then we will go from there
12:16 < AlphaBlend> we pulled spigot code into our custom builds
12:16 < AlphaBlend> but there came a time we had a ton of lag in our server
12:16 < AlphaBlend> why? i don't know why
12:17 < AlphaBlend> but I wanted to do a fresh start, so we removed spigot, and kept only noteworthy changes of our own in there
12:17 < AlphaBlend> I think it was a bit better
12:17 < AlphaBlend> not to say your code really did anything bad, but i still wanted to experiment
12:17 <+md_5> AlphaBlend I'm working more onto breaking spigot stuff into its own patches even further
12:17 < AlphaBlend> meh we still had it from time to time
12:17 <+md_5> and once the new config is in place
12:18 <+md_5> you should be able to remove / add most patches without breaking sutff
12:18 <+md_5> stuff
12:18 < dx> neat
12:18 < AlphaBlend> this patching concept in terms of adding code is foreign to me when it comes to server development
12:18 < AlphaBlend> is this just simply replacing our file with yours?
12:19 < AlphaBlend> say, if we were using spigot
12:19 <+md_5> its replacing bits of a file
12:19 < Grum> the patching is what you get on a static codebase
12:20 < dx> it's not like you can refactor core components that spigot touches with an API anyway
12:20 < AlphaBlend> hm
12:21 < AlphaBlend> i've kept myself up for a conversation I really wanted to participate in
12:21 < AlphaBlend> and it worked
12:21 < AlphaBlend> so now i don't feel really tired, but I shouldn't pull an all-nighter either
12:29 <+md_5> thats all folks
12:30 < AlphaBlend> yeah
12:30 < AlphaBlend> well later today's another time to have another discussion, for me at least
12:31 < AlphaBlend> i thoroughly enjoyed the one we had earlier, a lot of information and a lot of fun it was
12:31 < AlphaBlend> but i should go to bed now
12:31 < AlphaBlend> and i will, so afk ;p
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12:49 < SinZ> Grum: Why does the new launcher send the client the version?
12:49 < SinZ> yet there are places in the client you still hard-code version number
12:53 < Grum> SinZ: that is just the profile version
12:53 < Grum> so we can send that back in the snooperdata, crashreports
12:54 < Grum> and flatout deny tickets that do not have a version that is ours =)
12:54 < SinZ> heh
12:55 < Grum> also it wouldn't make sense to distill the version from that
12:57 <+md_5> this is why you kee the version the same when making mods
12:58 < Grum> yup so version != profile == good indication of 'modded' ;P
12:58 < Grum> also flatout deny all those tickets
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12:58 < jast> also flat out deny all tickets
12:58 <+md_5> ^^
12:58 < Grum> nah just the ones that are invalid :)
12:59 < jast> less work if you deny everything
12:59 < jast> can be automated even
12:59 < jast> win-win!
12:59 < Grum> but then we could shutdown the ticketing system!
12:59 < Grum> and then we wouldnt get whines when it would break ;)
12:59 < Grum> win-win-win!
12:59 < jast> nah, that'd be boring
12:59 < Grum> you know, i just realized that we're storing the texturefile within the serverdata ......
12:59 < Grum> ./cry
12:59 < Grum> now i have to refactor that :P
12:59 < jast> sell snake oil instead of products. no work but still $$$. win⁴!
13:01 < jast> snake vapour, in fact. nothing's cheaper and less work than that.
13:01 < Grum> oh god pbunny msgs me
13:01 < SinZ> yeh we all get it
13:01 < SinZ> we just ignore it now though
13:02 < jast> I have a 100% reliable methodology for selling snake vapour with zero effort and making billions. I can share it with you for the sensationally low price of $897, but only if you order within the next ten minutes
13:02 < jast> there's also an affiliate system so I don't have to do my own marketing
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13:03 < Grum> can it get two for 898?
13:03 < jast> aww, pbunny has never messaged me :( I feel left out
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13:04 < Grum> i suggetsed to msg you jast
13:04 < SinZ> from memory he still has a spy in here, so don't worry
13:08 < Grum> apparently you are a crying schoolboy
13:08 < Grum> i mean, i totally agree
13:08 < Grum> pbunnyforpresident
13:10 < jast> me?
13:10 < jast> yeah, totally
13:10 < Grum> nah SinZ and dav1d orso
13:10 < TobiX> Grum: You should really install the Jira-Minecraft integration plugin. Then: Closing tickets with TNT!
13:10 < Grum> tnt? pfft ;P
13:11 < SinZ> super charged creepers
13:11 < jast> new captcha system: to file a ticket, please implement $thingamajig in redstone in the box provided below
13:18 < Grum> the captcha should be: help this newbie in a friendly and kind way
13:18 < Grum> then we'd not have ANY tickets
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13:24 < SinZ> Grum: http://screencloud.net/v/1Oms This is the captcha you need, pbunny would aprove!
13:25 < Grum> not getting it :(
13:25 < SinZ> apparently it was a 9, and you are not human if you didn't get it
13:26 < Grum> ah i see
13:27 <+md_5> lol thats the one I couldnt figure out
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14:40 < dav1d> Grum: yo?
14:41 < dav1d> what happened?^^
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14:44 <+pdelvo> znc stinks. my bouncer cannot connect to freenode and I have no idea why
14:45 < dav1d> pdelvo: works fine here!
14:45 < dav1d> znc ftw!
14:46 < unnicked943> znc is a piece of bug
14:46 < unnicked943> never worked well for me
14:46 <+ammar2> doesn't work well for me, clearly its terrible
14:46 < unnicked943> dav1d is probably a troll
14:47 < dav1d> ammar2: sure, everything I am too stuipid to install sucks
14:47 <+pdelvo> the znc webinterface is slow as hell :/
14:47 < dav1d> pdelvo: really? :O
14:47 < dav1d> pdelvo: which version?
14:48 <+pdelvo> ZNC 0.206r2
14:48 < dav1d> pdelvo: then you complain, lol
14:48 <+pdelvo> when I ping freenode from my server I get a ping < 1ms so this is not the problem
14:48 < dav1d> pdelvo: 1.x is the up to date
14:48 <+pdelvo> it worked for months without a problem
14:49 < dav1d> and you don't have multi-server support pfft
14:49 < dav1d> if you want I can host an account for you, I have a nifty webchat connected to the znc :P
14:50 < unnicked943> and i can host paypal for you
14:50 < unnicked943> paypal account, that is
14:50 <+pdelvo> the windows build of znc always need months to get updated. "March 2013: For everyone who's asking about 1.x coming to Windows: don't give up hope, I'll be working on it as soon as upstream releases the first post-1.0 version! "
14:50 < dav1d> pdelvo: I had to compile it for my debian, was easy and done in a few mins
14:51 < unnicked943> lol, debian
14:51 < dav1d> sadimusi pls
14:51 < Calinou> unnicked943: +1 :>
14:52 < dav1d> clop Calinou 
14:52 < Calinou> clop dav1d 
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15:05 < SinZ> dav1d: my znc installation was very easy on ubuntu
15:05 < dav1d> SinZ: debian *old* stable :P
15:05 < dav1d> nothing in the packets
15:06 < dav1d> *no packet in the repositorie
15:06 < dav1d> s
15:07 < unnicked943> why use outdated software?
15:10 < dav1d> oh dear
15:14 < jast> bleeding edge vs stability, yada yada
15:15 < unnicked943> mac is stable
15:15 < unnicked943> and bleeding edge
15:15 < unnicked943> linux is for people without money
15:15 < unnicked943> :>
15:16 < jast> and I use it anyway. confusing...
15:18 <+AndrewPH> <*status> ZNC 0.206 - http://znc.in
15:18 <+AndrewPH> I should update...
15:19 < dav1d> ZNC 1.0 - http://znc.in
15:19 < dav1d> yay
15:19 < jast> irssi
15:19 < dav1d> pfft
15:19 < jast> aw man, odd one out
15:19 < dav1d> irssi worst irc client eva! :D
15:20 < dav1d> irc client war pls
15:20 < Yoshi2> chatzilla > all
15:20 < zutto> II>weechat>irssi>* !
15:20 < dav1d> ^
15:20 < jast> jirc! (does that exist? bound to, right?)
15:21 < zutto> yeah, theres client named jirc
15:21 < dav1d> jastirc?
15:21 < jast> nah
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15:28 < dav1d> o/
15:28 <+pdelvo> o/
15:29 < Yoshi2> o/
15:29 < dav1d> watching etho doing computercraft is horrible
15:30 < dav1d> "does capitalization matter" ...
15:30 <+pdelvo> I saw that too :D But I used sleep(1000) first too because everywhere else it is messured in ms :D
15:30 <+pdelvo> in visual basic it doesnt matter ;)
15:31 < unnicked943> in visual basic it doesn't matter what you code, you will get shit at the end anyway
15:31 < dav1d> do lua indices start at 1?
15:31 <+pdelvo> jeah
15:31 < jast> just like in matlab \o/
15:32 < Yoshi2> in visual basic you can hide everything with a pretty gui
15:32 < Yoshi2> and damn, it annoys me to no end that indices in lua start at 1
15:32 < mbaxter_> So wait
15:32 <+pdelvo> pUbLiC cLaS tEsT is valid :D
15:32 < dav1d> I bet you can redfine an integer which increments itself automatically
15:32 < dav1d> :P
15:33 < jast> in perl, $[ = 1
15:33 < jast> endless fun!
15:33 < jast> in fact you can set $[ to 500 to have arrays start at index 500
15:33 < jast> this whole feature is deprecated though :(
15:34 < dav1d> because it is stuipid^^
15:35 <+pdelvo> Lets test what happens if you write a dll in c# which has a class in it with two fields "test" and "Test" and reference it in visual basic
15:35 < dav1d> also rubies method_missing
15:35 < dav1d> *rubys
15:35 < dav1d> whatever stuipid english
15:35 < jast> ruby allows plenty of insanity
15:36 < dav1d> which is cool, but if you wanna use it productivly it is insane
15:36 < dav1d> (is that even a word...)
15:38 <+pdelvo> hihi 'test' is ambiguous because multiple kinds of members with this name exist in class 'Test.TestClass'.
15:38 < jast> I made this thing for ruby a LONG time ago: http://heapsort.de/circus/doc/classes/Hookable.html
15:41 < dav1d> jast: I want that in D :(
15:41 < jast> tough luck
15:41 < dav1d> would be possible via vtable manipulation but though
15:42 < dav1d> I guess
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15:48 < jast> here's the code in case you want to port it to D ;) http://vpaste.net/mhAcH
15:48 < jast> written 2004
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15:57 < TobiX> dav1d: method_missing, see also: "WAT?"
15:57 < dav1d> that talk is meh
15:57 < dav1d> JS behaviour he showed actually makes a bit sense, there is a lot worse
16:01 < dav1d> TIL youtube, eating, irc → quality of my english ↓
16:02 < mbaxter_> dx: RIP TagAPI.
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19:14 <+sadimusi> anybody with an iOS dev account and free UDID slots around?
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