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14:30 < dav1d> wth
14:30 < Not-002> [fCraft] fragmer * r1995 2 files : AddWorldPopup now allows canceling generation tasks in progress, if IMapGeneratorState supports cancelation.
14:32 < jast> well anyway, I suppose if you prefer that bugs make everything freeze, blocking I/O in a single thread is a great choice
14:32 < barneygale> jast: he mentioned select(), which returns which fds/sockets are ready to read/write
14:32 < jast> I happen to be aware of networking basics
14:33 < barneygale> So in what circumstances will that freeze?
14:33 < jast> if you accidentally try to read more than is available
14:33 < barneygale> It's the basis of all sorts of stuff. It's the default reactor twisted chooses if the others don't work.
14:33 < dav1d> AnotherOne: so you're making a client?
14:33 < AnotherOne> yes 
14:33 < dav1d> do you have any opengl experience?
14:33 < AnotherOne> nope
14:34 < jast> for instance, TCP is stream-based and there tend to be messages that are still incomplete after just one read
14:34 < dav1d> good luck then
14:34 < AnotherOne> thank you
14:34 < SinZ> Luck is required
14:34 < dav1d> opengl isn't something you learn within one day
14:34 < AnotherOne> this project is for learning:)
14:34 < AnotherOne> i'm not in haste
14:34 < jast> so suppose you forget to create a buffer and go back into your event loop... with blocking I/O, all I/O stops until the next part of the message is received. with non-blocking I/O, that one connection will be in an consistent state but everything else will still work
14:35 < barneygale> ofc
14:35 < barneygale> but who is suggesting the former?
14:35 < jast> dx is
14:35 < jast> "non-blockiong sockets are bad [, durrrr]"
14:36 < dx> i did not say the durr part but i thought it
14:36 < jast> yeah, I'm just that good at mind-reading
14:38 < dx> jast: also if select() says the socket can be read, recv() will return at least one byte, always, and never block
14:38 < jast> yeah, until you accidentally read twice
14:38 < jast> of course than never happens in example code, which is too simple for stuff like that
14:38 < dx> ...why blame non-blocking sockets for that
14:39 < dx> err *blocking
14:39 < jast> I'm not talking about blame
14:39 < dx> you're supposed to read right away after getting the select() return value
14:39 < jast> but considering that mistakes are pretty much unavoidable, using something that will make their impact a thousand times worse is kind of stupid
14:40 < dx> why would anyone read the socket randomly in the middle of the code, outside of the socket event loop? that's poor design
14:40 < jast> depends on how serious you are about zero-copy semantics
14:41 < dx> the fact that people can write terrible code with blocking sockets doesn't make them bad
14:41 < AnotherOne> as if copying is bad
14:41 < barneygale> if you're using blocking sockets with select() you've usually made your own event loop
14:41 < dav1d> why would you use select/poll/kqueue etc. directly?
14:41 < jast> what's much more interesting, btw, is blocking _writes_
14:41 < barneygale> and then the semantics are pretty similar
14:41 < dav1d> there are great libraries for that
14:41 < jast> dav1d: I'd just use libev, naturally
14:41 < dx> dav1d: sure, you can use them. select/poll are simple enough to use them directly if you want to avoid dependencies though
14:42 < dav1d> yeah
14:42 < jast> but then again I didn't start this particular discussion
14:42 < dav1d> libev(ent)
14:43 < Not-002> [fCraft] fragmer * r1996 2 files : Removed cancelation code from FlatMapGen (it's so quick, cancelation is useless). Added progress reporting and cancelation support to RealisticMapGen.
14:43 < jast> yeah, avoiding dependencies so that you can re-invent the wheel for some of the most error-prone, tedious and portability-relevant things in the bowels of any event-heavy system sounds awesome
14:43 < dav1d> and I just figured out that I could make my life a lot easier within brala
14:44 < jast> yay!
14:44 < dav1d> get rid of tons of synchronized{} blocks
14:44 < dav1d> well maybe 3
14:44 < dav1d> still something :P
14:44 < jast> better a few than none :)
14:45 < dx> jast: i really don't see how blocking sockets are error prone if you follow the standard select() pattern
14:45 < dx> and portability, well, yeah, windows has their own variant of sockets as usual, but every other unix supports it perfectly
14:46 < dx> i usually don't care about windows but if i did i wouldn't mind adding a dependency
14:46 < jast> you mean like libev, which already does all of this for you?
14:47 <+Fador> libevent \o/
14:47 < dav1d> *does that better
14:47 < jast> yeah, that too
14:47 < dx> yes, but as i said, i usually don't care
14:47 < dav1d> libev > libevent
14:47 < dx> lol naming.
14:47 < jast> yeah, and clearly the massive overhead of select/poll is irrelevant, too
14:47 < dx> "overhead"?
14:47 < jast> yes
14:47 < dx> "massive"?
14:47 < dx> they are motherfucking system calls
14:47 < dav1d> there are more lightweight soloutions
14:47 < TobiX> dx: Better then liboobs (haha m( )
14:48 < jast> oh, right, dx doesn't actually understand the stuff he uses
14:48 < jast> good to know
14:48 < dx> jast: sorry?
14:49 < jast> why do you think people (in *bsd, linux and solaris) came up with replacements for select and poll?
14:49 < jast> can't find a decent source at the moment, so here's the gist
14:49 < dx> poll is actually a fairly recent replacement for select, and i like it
14:49 < jast> with select and poll, you maintain the fdset (or the poll structure) within your program
14:50 < jast> for each call to select() and poll(), the data structure is in userspace, and the kernel has to do a costly copy between kernelspace and userspace
14:50 < jast> not to mention that a crapload of obvious optimizations are impossible that you could do if the structures were maintained by the kernel
14:50 < jast> (which they are for kqueue, epoll, /dev/poll and friends)
14:52 < dx> so basically the point of using wrapper libraries is just using platform specific interfaces that are slightly more efficient?
14:52 < jast> not slightly
14:52 < jast> _extremely_
14:52 < dx> er.. yeah i guess it's okay if you scale to thousands of connections. i don't
14:53 < TobiX> Well, if you use the abstraction libraries, you get scalability for free...
14:54 < dav1d> also a nicer api
14:55 < jast> the API is much nicer, yes
14:55 < jast> you don't have to muck with pollfd structs
14:56 < dx> i like the api ._.
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14:56 < jast> yeah, and you like blocking sockets
14:56 < dx> yes..
14:56 < jast> a certain picture emerges
14:57 < dx> lol i'm not sure if i want to know what picture that is
14:57 < jast> you know, the "I do the exact opposite of what every sane person does" kind of picture
14:57 < Seegee> Hey dx, I saw the guy with the hostname of minecraft.org xD
14:57 < dx> lel
14:59 < dx> jast: i write shit that handles 5 connections at most, i enjoy writing the event loop myself, i like having simple code with no dependencies, if you're going to say i'm insane for having these preferences feel free to do so, i just don't care
14:59 < nastyCreeper> Seegee: minecraft.org != minecraft.net
14:59 < jast> I don't care what preferences you have
15:00 < jast> but spouting something like "non-blocking sockets are bad" without any context is a bit different from that
15:00 < dx> i did say that non-blocking sockets are good if you know what you're doing
15:00 < dx> but you suggested it to the channel newbie
15:00 < jast> I did
15:00 < jast> I don't think the potential for errors is higher with non-blocking sockets than with blocking ones
15:01 < jast> if you have an event loop anyway
15:01 < dav1d> Let's use Java
15:01 < dx> yes, that's a rather big "if"
15:01 < jast> (I actually recommended using a ready-made framework, by the way)
15:01 < dx> yeah
15:01 < dx> sorry for not considering that
15:02 < nastyCreeper> dav1d: how willl java help anything?
15:02 < dav1d> Java, the language gods use
15:02 < nastyCreeper> !ops dav1d troll
15:02 < dx> wasn't nastyCreeper banned before
15:02 < nastyCreeper> dx: by mistake
15:03 < dav1d> yeah sadimusi unbanned pbunny again, no idea why
15:03 < dx> and right after that you told #minecraft that sadimusi was asking for your personal information or some shit
15:03 < dx> so classy
15:03 < dav1d> (and getting banned there, too)
15:03 < dx> almost as classy as dx saying all non-blocking sockets are evil and ignoring the fact that they suggested using a framework for it
15:04 < nastyCreeper> dav1d: i am not pbunny, and pbunny is still banned
15:04 < dav1d> weren't we over that?
15:04 < nastyCreeper> we were. were you?
15:05 < nastyCreeper> you may also be pbunny yourself
15:05 < dx> HEY GUYS, RANDOM #mcdevs POLL, what terminal emulators do you use?
15:05 < TobiX> dx: rxvt-unicode
15:05 < dav1d> dx: ^
15:05 < dx> TobiX: i'd love to use urxvt but had problems with a few characters, can you render this? "ಠ_ಠ" 
15:06 < dav1d> no
15:06 < dav1d> well []_[]
15:06 < dx> yeah it's supposed to be a face
15:06 < TobiX> dx: Considering st...
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15:06 < dav1d> TobiX: lol
15:06 < dav1d> same here
15:06 < dx> st?
15:06 < TobiX> dx: I don't know why, but those are just blocks...
15:06 < dav1d> but st can't handle wide characters at all
15:06 < TobiX> dx: From suckless-tools
15:07 < dx> hah suckless, sounds fun
15:07 < TobiX> dav1d: Seriously? :(
15:07 < dx> sucks that suckless means featureless
15:07 < dav1d> TobiX: yes
15:07 < dx> yeah wide chars are very important too
15:07 < dav1d> there was a discussion on the ng on how to implement them in a sane way, but Xlib
15:07 -!- nastyCreeper [~asd@static-71-174-73-11.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC]
15:07 < dav1d> thank god
15:08 < dav1d> I recommended pango, but pango is fat
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15:08 < TobiX> CGI:IRC? Someone uses that crap?
15:08 < dav1d> TobiX: pbunny does
15:08 < dx> TobiX: as far as i know almost every web client is crap
15:08 < jast> dav1d: http://gg.jk.gs/mcdevs.jpg
15:09 < dav1d> jast: your domain?
15:09 < jast> yeah
15:09 < dav1d> lol
15:09 < dx> nice
15:09 < AnotherOne> hahahahaha
15:09 < AnotherOne> true, true
15:09 < dx> ITC people with cool domains (some of them squatted, not all of them)
15:09 < dx> wiki.vg is really cool too
15:10 <+Fador> needs more hentai
15:10 < dx> Fador: ...that sounded really random until i whois'd
15:11 <+Fador> ;D
15:11 < jast> I have the best IRC hostname
15:12 < AnotherOne> how to make it?
15:12 < dx> AnotherOne: you have to own it
15:12 < AnotherOne> own server?
15:12 < jast> step 1: register domain. step 2: have decent ISP. step 3: ??? step 4: profit!
15:12 < dx> just the domain, but a server is useful too
15:12 < jast> well, you're going to need an RDNS entry you can control
15:12 < dx> decent ISP? you mean they let you change the rdns?
15:13 < jast> a few do
15:13 < dx> i'm jealous.
15:13 < jast> it's not very common
15:13 -!- umby24|offline [~umby24@cpe-66-69-92-104.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
15:13 < jast> much more common for VPS and dedicated server hosting
15:13 < TobiX> dx: Somehow, nothing on my system renders that smily correctly...
15:13 < jast> (which is how I come by my RDNS)
15:13 < dx> yeah, of course
15:13 < dx> TobiX: oh, then the urxvt test is pointless :D
15:14 <+ammar2> I should have made my dns more creative
15:14 < dx> TobiX: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0ca0/index.htm
15:14 < jast> my RDNS used to be we.have.lowlatency.de
15:14 < jast> but that was a lie, reallyy
15:15 < dx> time=323 ms
15:15 < dx> i expected something worse
15:15 <+ammar2> jast: do you not consider my marriage proposal to be urgent
15:15 < jast> ammar2: nope
15:15 <+ammar2> :(
15:15 < dx> wot
15:15 < dav1d> dx: my chromium can't handle that character either
15:16 < jast> I love it when people refer to that and everyone else gets confused
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15:16 < TobiX> dx: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0ca0/fontsupport.htm - 5 fonts (one fallback), really? :(
15:16 < dx> dav1d TobiX: yeah it's a font issue then, need kannada support. the problem is that urxvt doesn't support it even with the right fonts
15:17 < dx> TobiX: this looks fallback too http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/font/lastresort/index.htm
15:18 < dx> "kannada" isn't a very popular language. that's what they get for typosquatting the cadadians
15:18 < TobiX> Oh, right, 2 fallback... I could install Arial...
15:18 < dx> http://kn.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B2%B5%E0%B2%BF%E0%B2%95%E0%B2%BF%E0%B2%AA%E0%B3%80%E0%B2%A1%E0%B2%BF%E0%B2%AF:Kannada_Support#GNU.2FLinux_and_FreeBSD
15:18 < jast> ultimate troll: include every single unicode glyph in Comics Sans MS
15:19 < jast> -s
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15:19 < dx> even better: process the shapes of arial unicode MS (a font that has massive unicode support) to make them look like comic sans
15:21 < TobiX> dx: Okay, installing unifont gives me support in gvim at least...
15:21 < dx> TobiX: you usually have to restart apps after using fc-cache -vf
15:22 < dx> kinda annoying but oh well
15:22 < TobiX> dx: Still not in rxvt-unicode :(
15:22 < dx> TobiX: :(
15:24 < dx> but yeah, missing a few unicode blocks from urxvt (there are others, this is just the most commonly used) is annoying. i might just debug the issue myself some day, because i really really want to use urxvtperl scripting
15:24 < dx> VTE is still the "best" meanwhile, but it's slow too
15:27 < dx> oh, the reason i started this conversation is because i'd love to have something like /ignore that doesn't hide the messages, but sets foreground and background to black
15:27 < dav1d> ?
15:27 < dav1d> this should work with any terminal?
15:28 < dav1d> well if it supports colors of course...
15:28 < dx> it does! but to show it you usually have to select the text... and VTE shows selected text with inverted foreground/background
15:28 < dx> guess what happens if you invert black/black
15:28 < dav1d> lol
15:29 < dav1d> well in urxvt you can change the selection color
15:29 < dx> yeah, the default urxvt settings get it right
15:30 < dx> also, does it look like i'm nitpicking too much? :D i just use irc too much time every day so naturally i care a lot
15:30 < dav1d> h?
15:30 < dav1d> *mh?
15:30 < jast> why bother changing the colours at all if you're not ignoring someone for real
15:31 < jast> might as well do the ignoring in your head :)
15:31 < dav1d> then my head runs out of memory too fast
15:31 <+ammar2> jast: the plethora of pointless trivia is a very nice touch, 10/10
15:31 < dx> jast: it's what i do, but it's just easier if the message isn't visible
15:32 < jast> I kind of expect that if my client had that feature, I'd be tempted to highlight every line by that person
15:32 < jast> so it's actually more work
15:32 < jast> ammar2: just to be clear... what are we talking about?
15:32 < dx> jast: i was thinking he talked about your marriage or something
15:32 <+ammar2> jast: the music page
15:33 < jast> right
15:33 < jast> sorry, I don't remember every piece of wording I ever put somewhere :)
15:34 < dx> jast: you've seen pbunny right?
15:35 < jast> seen as in, observed talking in this channel? yes
15:35 < dx> ye
15:35 < jast> pbunny taught me everything I know about computers
15:36 < dx> jast: what he said in this channel was usually pointless, but also influenced the conversation in some way. i can't use /ignore. however if it interferes with a serious conversation, i'd rather not see it, unless someone replies to it
15:36 < dx> the message is still there, i just won't read it unless it's relevant
15:39 < dx> putting it differently, it's forcing you to "think before you read" (for something you don't need to read)
15:40 < AnotherOne> y u no like pbunny?:)
15:40 < dav1d> ignorant idiot
15:40 < dx> nah i love him
15:40 < dav1d> beeing an idiot is ok, but combined with ignorance...
15:40 < dx> it's just too fun to read his stuff and i hate having fun
15:41 <+ammar2> for better or for worse he did kinda provoke quite a bit of activity here
15:41 < dx> ammar2: indeed
15:41 < dx> dav1d: ignorance + complete denial of ignorance. perfect combination
15:41 < dav1d> meh
15:42 < dx> also has anyone seen TkTech or sadimusi recently? we need more ops
15:42 < TkTech> Hm?
15:42 < nastyCreeper> i can be a nice op
15:42 < dx> yay TkTech
15:43 < dx> TkTech: i just checked the chanserv access list the other day, it's just you two guys and a lot of people who haven't been in this channel for a while
15:43 < dx> TkTech: would be nice to promote voiced people to op, since it's just channel moderation and nothing else, right?
15:44 < dx> (not saying all of them)
15:44 < dav1d> do we need more ops?
15:44 < dx> TkTech: also nastyCreeper is unbanned. just stating a fact and not saying anything about it.
15:45 < dx> dav1d: i think every channel needs to have at least one active op at any time, so having more helps cover more time
15:45 < dav1d> dx: Wallbraker = Prf_Jak_b
15:45 < dx> dav1d: Oh. cool then
15:45 < dav1d> dx: and he is on 3/4 of the day :P
15:46 < dx> oh what about fragmer? is he here?
15:47 < dx> i see commits only
15:47 < dav1d> .seen fragmer
15:47 < feepbot> dav1d: I have last seen fragmer 105 weeks, 10 hours ago saying "no difference there".
15:47 < dav1d> dx: ^
15:47 < dx> so it's kinda like mostawesomedude
15:47 < dx> sigh
15:47 < dav1d> not sure if he changed nickts
15:47 < AnotherOne> what is voice here?
15:47 -!- Zachoz is now known as Zachoz|Away
15:47 < dx> dav1d: yes, "simpson", but he left the channel for some reason in february
15:48 <+ammar2> AnotherOne: http://mcdevs.org/
15:48 <+ammar2> last bit of first paragraph
15:48 < dav1d> just some randomly voiced people which think they rule the world :P
15:48 < dx> voice means awesome, like ammar2
15:48 < dav1d> s/which/who/
15:48 < dav1d> damn german
15:48 < AnotherOne> heh
15:48 <+ammar2> dav1d: bow down filthy unvoiced peasent
15:48 < AnotherOne> same problem
15:48 < dav1d> AnotherOne: :)
15:48 < dav1d> ah
15:48 < dav1d> ammar2: :)
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16:07 < nastyCreeper> are binaural beats harmful?
16:07 < nastyCreeper> i.e. i-doser
16:09 < dx> wat
16:10 < nastyCreeper> dx: i.e. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEHVz5XCmBs
16:10 < nastyCreeper> ( in headphones )
16:12 < dx> 20hz lol
16:13 < nastyCreeper> please read the description.
16:13 < dx> that's usually the minimum frequency headphones support, wouldn't be surprised if you weren't actually hearing anything
16:14 < dx> i mean you do hear something but that's not 20hz at all
16:14 < nastyCreeper> dx: please don't act smart
16:14 < dx> uh..
16:14 < dx> you were the one asking
16:14 < nastyCreeper> in binaural beats, the 'real' hz are made by using slightly varying frequencies in different ears
16:14 < dx> is it around 20hz or not?
16:14 < nastyCreeper> which means, if left ear gives 200hz and right 220hz, you will 'hear' 10hz
16:15 < dx> oh, that crap
16:15 < nastyCreeper> 20hz *
16:15 < jast> basically a modulation effect
16:15 < nastyCreeper> thank god we have 2 ears
16:15 < jast> personally, when I listen to binaural beats, nothing happens
16:15 < jast> (except that I find them annoying0
16:16 < nastyCreeper> i now listen to 20hz for couple of minutes, and became more focused
16:16 < nastyCreeper> than before
16:16 < nastyCreeper> hardly a coinscidence
16:16 < dx> dat placebo
16:16 < dav1d> lol
16:16 < nastyCreeper> dx: no.
16:16 < nastyCreeper> dx: i also did experiments.
16:16 < dx> science!
16:16 < jast> if you want modulated very low frequencies, isochronic tones give you a much stronger modulation effect
16:16 < dav1d> does your C code contain twice the amount of macros now?
16:17 < nastyCreeper> dx: i chose samples randomly, then wrote effects i experienced
16:17 < nastyCreeper> only after that i looked at what i was listening
16:17 < jast> those don't even require stereo
16:17 < nastyCreeper> jast: right now i need to increase speed of my brain
16:17 < nastyCreeper> to shrink subjective time
16:17 < nastyCreeper> and do more stuff in less time
16:17 < dx> lol
16:18 < jast> that has little to do with 'brain speed' and much more to do with subjective experience
16:18 < jast> it's not like the brain runs on a clock
16:18 < nastyCreeper> jast: the faster is brain, the slower it sees the outer world
16:18 < nastyCreeper> and counterwise
16:18 < jast> the brain is not a computer
16:18 < nastyCreeper> jast: but it has some kind of frequency
16:18 < jast> exactly
16:18 < jast> "some kind of frequency"
16:18 < nastyCreeper> yeah, i.e. delta/theta waves in sleep
16:19 < nastyCreeper> alpha/beta while awake etc
16:19 < dx> oh, there's a drug that does exactly that. it's not exactly a drug, though, but it's sold like one.
16:19 < dx> it's called "accela", check it out
16:19 < nastyCreeper> dx: i'm concerned with my health though
16:19 < nastyCreeper> long-term health
16:19 < jast> these frequencies are just a representation of how frequently certain firing patterns happen
16:19 < nastyCreeper> jast: yeah
16:19 < jast> the brain isn't faster at all, it just does different things
16:20 < nastyCreeper> jast: programming is about firing patterns
16:20 < nastyCreeper> so frequency is a bottleneck
16:20 < jast> feel free to say more nonsense while I go away to do something else
16:20 < dx> hm yeah this looks pretty bad http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_grl13ar2sRg/S-ptikE3yQI/AAAAAAAAACU/b76QNcjVNJc/s1600/Capture.JPG
16:20 < dx> but you get the effect you want!
16:20 < nastyCreeper> jast: have you run out of arguments?
16:21 < dav1d> lol
16:21 < dav1d> how can a single person be so ignorant
16:21 < jast> I've run out of patience and interest in talking to you about this
16:23 < dx> >Accela. A "smart drug." Upon ingestion, it oscillates at a particular frequency which causes the secretion of a hormone (neurotransmitter?) which influences the user's sense of time, causes the user to feel as if his consciousness is accelerated, and also improves the brain's speed of calculation. The drug disappears from the body after one day.
16:23 < jast> I'll just say this much: I believe thinking about the brain as if there is such a thing as "making it go faster" is misleading and there are probably much more effective ways to think about it
16:23 < dx> accela has frequencies too!
16:23 < redu> do something you want to do, instead of thinking about how to do it faster :|
16:23 < Flemmard> accela is the brain overclocking. fun at first but can reduce/break it? :>
16:24 < jast> the smart way to get faster, IMO, is to learn to do more things automatically
16:24 < dav1d> gotta get my brain a new gpu
16:24 < jast> all that requires is a conducive mindset and a bit of actual doing
16:24 < nastyCreeper> redu: i want to code a shitload of lines in 1 evening
16:24 < nastyCreeper> and i want to code it right
16:25 < dav1d> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
16:25 < dx> what's cool about accela is that it brings you up to the speed of the wir- er i mean the internet. that's how it works, slowing down physical reality is just a side effect
16:25 < jast> write in assembler
16:25 < dav1d> ^ indicates the error
16:25 < jast> that way you write more lines of code for any given piece of functionality
16:25 < dav1d> dx: can I plug my finger into a lan cable and understand the internet if I take accela?
16:26 < nastyCreeper> jast: the algorithm is yet to be created, i can't "learn to do it automatically"
16:26 < dx> dav1d: you can be the internet
16:26 < dav1d> awesome
16:26 < dx> dav1d: i think you have to kill yourself for that though, but it's worth the risk
16:26 < dav1d> but I can be the internet!
16:26 < dx> of course
16:27 < dav1d> and my dna will hold all the bytes!
16:27 < dav1d> cool shit
16:27 < dx> yeah dude
16:27 < nastyCreeper> can we remove  dav1d troll please?
16:27 < nastyCreeper> he's not funny
16:27 < dx> lol
16:27 < dav1d> I AM THE INTERNETZ YOU CANT REMOVE ME WITHOUT KILLING YOUR CONNECTION
16:28 < dx> just go to the hardware store around the corner and ask them for a tcp cutter
16:28 < nastyCreeper> !ops dav1d troll caps flood spam
16:28 < dav1d> lol
16:28 < AnotherOne> I ARE /fixed
16:28 < nastyCreeper> TkTech sadimusi
16:28 < dav1d> nastyCreeper: I would highlight Prf_Jako_b he is an op too
16:28 < dx> i'd like to know what kind of bot in this channel handles "!ops"
16:29 < dav1d> dx: none, haha
16:29 < Seegee> Hey guys, does anyone know if there is a rate limit on packet 0x6B? I am trying to drop multiple items at once but only the first stack drops...
16:29 < dav1d> dx: but tell this some ignorant guy who believes in that
16:30 < AnotherOne> Seegee: so send more packets
16:30 < dx> in other news i started rewatching serial experiments lain a few weeks ago, if you haven't noticed
16:30 < dav1d> Seegee: is 0x6b really for dropping out of the inventory?
16:30 < AnotherOne> nope
16:31 < dx> i watched it years ago but now i can recognize and understand most snippets of code that they just put everywhere for no reason
16:31 < Seegee> Out of creative inventory, yes
16:31 < dav1d> mh
16:32 < Seegee> AnotherOne: Send more 0x6b packets?
16:32 < TobiX> dx: Lain is awesome :)
16:32 < dav1d> I thought it was for: creative -> hotbar
16:32 < dav1d> but I can be wrong
16:32 < AnotherOne> i think 1 packet = 1 item (stack)
16:32 < Seegee> If you have the slot index as -1, it drops the item
16:32 < dav1d> I see
16:33 < dx> TobiX: it's really outstanding among other anime, you can easily compare it to other cyberpunk literature
16:34 < nastyCreeper> dav1d: you are always wrong
16:34 < Seegee> AnotherOne: I am already sending multiple packets with multiple stacks, but once it gets to the second or third one, it just wont drop it.
16:34 < nastyCreeper> Seegee: i think that depends on server
16:34 < nastyCreeper> not exactly protocol question
16:34 < dav1d> I should write a nick blacklist for my notify-osd plugin
16:34 < nastyCreeper> dav1d: just leave the channel
16:35 < dx> dav1d: lol.
16:35 < dx> nastyCreeper: just leave the channel
16:35 < AnotherOne> If an item is picked up from the quick bar (item id is -1) 
16:35 < nastyCreeper> dx ?
16:35 < AnotherOne> more items on quick bar?
16:36 < dx> dav1d: oh god you're using two different weechats at the same time what is this i don't even
16:36 < dav1d> dx: mh?
16:36 < dav1d> dx: two weechats, one znc?
16:36 < dx> dav1d: ctcp version sends two replies lol. i know it's possible but it always surprises me every time it happens
16:36 < dx> ye
16:36 < dav1d> dx: hehe
16:36 < dav1d> I didn't even know that happens
16:37 < dav1d> I thought znc eats them for dinner
16:37 < dx> some BNCs reply with their own version too
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16:40 < TobiX> dx: And some people just write random crap into their CTCP VERSION...
16:40 < dx> TobiX: yes hello
16:41 < dav1d> :D
16:41 < dav1d> dx: lol
16:41 < dav1d> "irssi master race"
16:41 < dx> :D
16:41 < jast> I use the only sane IRC client
16:42 < dav1d> jastirc?
16:42 < dx> the version number doesn't even matter since they won't release a new one for the rest of eternity
16:43 < jast> too bad I retired the version response with the eyesore-inducing colours
16:43 < dav1d> I don't believe your ctcp version jast 
16:43 < dx> haha
16:43 < TobiX> dx: It's perfeeeeeect!
16:43 < jast> if software still gets updated, clearly it's not perfect yet
16:44 < dx> actually the irssi devs don't update because they believe that
16:45 < dx> i'm just wondering if this lack of updates will ever force me to use weechat instead
16:46 < dav1d> dx: imo weechat > irssi
16:46 < jast> irssi is perfect: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?pkg=irssi;dist=unstable
16:46 < dx> dav1d: maybe! 
16:47 < dx> i'm willing to switch if i ever think it's needed
16:47 < dav1d> jast: doesn't load for me
16:47  * TobiX giggles: "when using UTF-8, nicknames that contain ISO-8859 characters don't display properly"
16:48 < dx> ..nicknames?
16:48 < dav1d> one of the main reasons I switched from irssi to weechat was the nicklist, shortly after that I realized I don't need no fucking nicklist (well barely need it), but I am glad I switched, weechat feels so much more useable
16:48 < dx> heh, the nicklist, i'm sure that's the main reason for a lot of people
16:49 < Seegee> http://webchat.freenode.net/ > *
16:50 < nastyCreeper> as far as i hate that, i agree with dav1d
16:50 < nastyCreeper> weechat is superior
16:53 < dx> you hate agreeing with dav1d?
16:54 < dav1d> ya andrea hates me
16:58 < dx> wait what
17:11 < nastyCreeper> dx: everybody hates agreeing with dav1d
17:13 < dx> i'll just assume you threw a completely random statement with no serious meaning.
17:16 < jast> just that guy being that guy
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17:20 < dx> just that guy jousting that guy
17:22 <+Prf_Jakob> TkTech: http://neural-boost.com/images/eve_odyssey/paladin.jpg <-- I think its time to start flying battleships...
17:22 <+Prf_Jakob> TkTech: http://neural-boost.com/images/eve_odyssey/navy_apoc.jpg
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17:31 < dx> hey guys i need a good tool to open large files with json objects and manipulate them as a tree (it's relevant to the channel because the minecraft protocol is going to be a JSON REST api soon. okay not really.)
17:32 < dx> oh wait the last time i searched for one of those it was xml instead of json, maybe there's hope that i can find one of these myself
17:33 <+pdelvo> you could use a ide. they have good code/text editors in most cases. the visual studio editor works very well with big files for example
17:33 < dx> actually, i just used a text editor with folding the last time for xml
17:34 < dx> but i'm not sure if a text editor / ide is going to be efficient for this
17:35 < dx> oh, it's not so big, just 1.2mb of json
17:35 < dx> might give it a try
17:36 < nastyCreeper> pdelvo: visual studio requires microshaft winblows, doesn't it?
17:37 < dx> classy
17:37 < dx> nastyCreeper: that was just an example anyway
17:37 < nastyCreeper> dx: sounded more like m$ propaganda
17:39 < dx> haha funny guy
17:39 < nastyCreeper> dx: this won't be as funny when they take your family away
17:39 < dx> hahaha funny guy
17:39 < nastyCreeper> ?
17:40 < GudangGaram> just use gvim
17:40 < nastyCreeper> what's funny here?
17:40 <+ammar2> nastyCreeper: out of curiousity, do you audit any code you run on your computer?
17:40 < nastyCreeper> ammar2: of course not
17:40 < nastyCreeper> it's impossible
17:40 < nastyCreeper> why do you ask?
17:40 < dx> GudangGaram: holy shit you're the same guy who apparently i've never seen in this channel but you're in my chat logs and someone mentioned you as an old lurker a while ago
17:40 < jast> yeah, eclipse is clearly tons better than visual studio
17:41 < jast> not least because it's so much more java
17:41 < dx> GudangGaram: sorry if that's a weird reaction
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17:53 < GudangGaram> dx: lol yeah uh, I used to hang out here quite some time ago 
17:54 < GudangGaram> but kinda got tired of SirCmp so I decided the best way to avoid any trouble was to not be here ... but I got told he got put on the bad boys list so .. I'm back :P
17:54 < dx> hahaha
17:55 < dx> seems like people deciding to stay out of this channel because of him was rather common
17:56 < redu> wai you no like him :<
17:58 < dx> redu: i appreciate his technical skills but he doesn't seem to be good with communication.
17:59 <+pdelvo> Im a hidden microsoft propagand. I now told the headquarter about it which redirect it to the fbi. they know who you are because of a hidden trojaner in your bios
17:59 < dx> pdelvo: :D
17:59 <+pdelvo> :D
17:59 < dx> did you know that mojang is conspiring against us to stop using nbt and use json instead?
18:00 < dx> maybe i'm being too paranoid...
18:00 <+pdelvo> there is a trojaner in the json format specification too
18:01 < Yoshi2> and every single json implementation in the world contains the trojaner from the format specification
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18:01 < dx> it doesn't need to be in the implementation
18:02 < dx> the way the format is specified to be parsed sets a specific sequence of CPU registers that trigger the BIOS trojaner to send your login information to mojang
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18:03 <+pdelvo> possible
18:06 < GudangGaram> redu: as for wai I dun like him, well, not going into that :D 
18:07 < redu> :<
18:07 < redu> ok
18:08 < AnotherOne> someone say 'dick' in german
18:09 < GudangGaram> redu: well it's not really fair to talk bad about someone when they're not here to defend themselves :P 
18:10 <+pdelvo> do you mean the german word "dick"?
18:11 < dx> wikipedia tells me that in germany they are called "richard" too
18:13 < Calinou> 'dick' in german
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18:35 < AnotherOne> Calinou: lol
18:35 < AnotherOne> i mean penis
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18:45 < Calinou> AnotherOne: penis eliminated you.
18:46 < Yoshi2> well, that was random
18:47 < AnotherOne> wut?
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18:55 < dx> it's a metaphor for the reproduction instincts that are meant for survival but also motivate you to take risks that you would normally avoid
18:56 < dx> that's what he meant with "penis eliminated you"
19:02 < AnotherOne> thank you for enlightening me, kind sir:)
19:04 < AnotherOne> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gZ2dxyKWpE
19:07 < dx> why do you link negative videos, AnotherOne
19:07 < dx> please be more positive
19:07 < AnotherOne> why negavite?
19:07 < AnotherOne> negative*
19:07 < dx> check video id
19:07 < AnotherOne> lol
19:09 < AnotherOne> i do it because i am EVIL
19:09 < Yoshi2> negative != evil
19:10 < AnotherOne> true
19:10 < AnotherOne> i think i'm more like chaotic neutral, not evil:)
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20:03 < Not-002> [wiki] Edit by SnoFox to Category:Minecraft Modern -> http://tinyurl.com/povscpf
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20:21 < AnotherOne> fuck threads
20:21 < AnotherOne> fuck deadlocks
20:21 < AnotherOne> heil boost::asio
20:21 < AnotherOne> if i could get it...
20:23 < dx> oh lol i just saw this
20:23 < dx> https://github.com/Mojang/LegacyLauncher/issues/1
20:24 < dx> (don't mind the 8 hour lag)
20:24 < dx> sucks that he didn't explain the reason to close it
20:25 < dav1d> who is dequis?
20:25 < dav1d> dx: is it you?
20:25 < dx> dav1d: me
20:25 < dav1d> kk
20:25 < dx> should i just copy-paste what he said here before closing it, for completeness?
20:25 < dav1d> I like your gravatar
20:25 < dx> thanks, i'm a spooky vampire
20:26 < dav1d> fucking youtube lately
20:31 < Yoshi2> it would be nice to know the reason for closing the issue
20:32 < dx> he said it here
20:34 < AnotherOne> you see now?
20:34 < dx> http://dpaste.com/1201461/
20:34 < AnotherOne> resistance is futile
20:34 < dx> AnotherOne: lolol
20:35 < dav1d> dx: should we open a pull request with a beerware license attached?^^
20:35 < AnotherOne> do it!
20:36 < Yoshi2> the issue is not important enough, right
20:36 < Yoshi2> instead of leaving it open so it can be fixed at a later point
20:37 < dav1d> na not gonna do it
20:37 < AnotherOne> default license is "all rights reserved" i think
20:37 < dx> AnotherOne: which also means "clicking the fork button is illegal"
20:37 < dx> fun.
20:37 < dx> of course, this issue doesn't matter at all
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20:38 < AnotherOne> what about public exposition?
20:38 < dx> it's in a "grey area"
20:38 < dav1d> dammit someone started following me, I think I should know him ...
20:38 < dx> whatever "grey area" means
20:38  * SpaceManiac yawns
20:38 < dav1d> I also think he studies with me
20:38 < dx> SpaceManiac: why do i suspect your yawns are really meaningful in contet
20:38 < dx> *context
20:39 < dx> but seriously
20:39 < dx> let's not discuss this
20:39 < dav1d> and he fucking has google glasses
20:39 < dx> i just requested one file to be uploaded to a repository, this was considered too much effort, end of the story
20:40 < AnotherOne> dav1d: TEH SPY!!111
20:40 < dx> dav1d: is that a good or a bad thing?
20:40 <+pdelvo> what do you think about the pbunny license. So we can be sure the fbi has not put any trojaners in it
20:40 < dav1d> well he wore them
20:40 < dav1d> I want them, too!
20:40 < dx> dav1d: :D
20:41 < AnotherOne> you know what to do
20:41 < dx> i don't like google glass.. sounds like it's going to affect the way people behave negatively
20:41 < Grum> <dx> sucks that he didn't explain the reason to close it <-- why would i need to explain anything?
20:41 < AnotherOne> Grum: because it is ok
20:41 < dx> Grum: just in case someone reads the ticket later?
20:41 < dav1d> Grum: would be good to know on github why you closed it
20:41 < AnotherOne> and being a dick is not
20:42 < Grum> i'll clean up the whole issue if you prefer that :)
20:42 < dav1d> Grum: also if you want I can add a license (any you want) in form of a pull request
20:42 < dx> Grum: if you believe it is absurd, state it
20:42 < Grum> i'll be stating nothing
20:42 < dx> Grum: okay. i am sorry for wasting your precious time.
20:42 < Grum> thanks!
20:42 <+SpaceManiac> oh, g'afternoon Grum, or whatever time it is there
20:43 < Grum> dav1d: you in general close invalid tickets
20:43 < dav1d> Grum: mh?
20:43 <+pdelvo> http://www.omfgdogs.com/
20:45 < dav1d> this 
20:45 < dav1d> hurts
20:45 < dav1d> my
20:45 < dav1d> eyes
20:45 < Grum> SpaceManiac: hai
20:45 <+pdelvo> :D
20:45 < Grum> dx: what i really do not get is how you make a problem only you have a problem i need to solve
20:47 < dx> Grum: i just stated an issue in a repository. the issue exists. you don't need to fix it if you don't want to.
20:47 < Grum> I mean that code is not even in use, i cannot imagine what you would need to use it for :/
20:47 < Grum> lacking a license is *not* an issue
20:47 < dx> okay
20:48 < dav1d> is it a bad idea when I want to process all items of a queue hold the queue lock until all items are processed instead of acquiring it for every item?
20:48 <+SpaceManiac> dav1d: I imagine it depends on how long the processing takes
20:48 <+pdelvo> what does "process" mean?
20:48 < dav1d> mh
20:49 <+pdelvo> I would depend that on how long the processing needs
20:49 < dav1d> I try to keep brala.utils.* very general, which includes brala.utils.queue
20:49 < dav1d> so processing can be everything
20:49 <+pdelvo> make it configurable
20:49 < dav1d> in my case it's dispatching the minecraft packets which arrived in the queue
20:49 <+pdelvo> you could even copy the items in it and process them
20:49 <+pdelvo> so you can unlock the queue directly
20:50 < dav1d> copying .. na, I don't know how long the queue is, this could be costly
20:50 <+pdelvo> not as costly as locking a queue for a minute
20:50 < dav1d> https://github.com/Dav1dde/BraLa/blob/master/brala/utils/queue.d#L141
20:51 < dav1d> in line 146 this calls get, which acquires the lock
20:52 < dav1d> also empty locks
20:52 < dav1d> I don't like that at all
20:52 < Grum> dx: do you need to use it for something orso?
20:53 < Grum> because there is a compiled version of it available you can just use if you want
20:53 <+pdelvo> I would not catch the exception there
20:53 < dav1d> pdelvo: why?
20:53 < dav1d> there is a really small chance that this can happen
20:53 < dav1d> but it is possible
20:53 <+pdelvo> catch exception where you can react on them. if the delegate throws a exception the user of the queue should deal with it
20:54 < dav1d> pdelvo: this is foreach implementation
20:54 < dav1d> foreach(foo; queue)
20:54 < dav1d> calls opApply
20:54 < dav1d> this shouldn't throw
20:54 <+pdelvo> the dg is a delegate to usercode?
20:54 < dav1d> yes
20:54 < dav1d> oh I see what you mean
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20:54 < dav1d> get could throw empty
20:54 <+pdelvo> So it can throw an exception
20:54 < dav1d> good point
20:55 <+pdelvo> maybe the user wants to eact different on different exceptions of his code
20:56 <+pdelvo> or he just want to see whats wrong with his code. you are just silently throwing that information away
20:58 <+pdelvo> you could just catch your exception e.g. if your queue is empty
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20:59 < dav1d> pdelvo: ok I rewrote it, I introduced "get_no_lock", for the whole opApply only one lock is acquired
20:59 < dav1d> so iterating over it blocks the queue
21:01 < dav1d> oh damn
21:01 < dav1d> this could break existing code
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21:06 < dx> whoops sorry, was afk
21:07 < dx> Grum: no, sorry, i don't need to use it. it's just that whenever i see a github repo that could be useful but has an undefined license, i ask for clarifications.
21:08 < dx> Grum: github is about open source, and a certain amount of freedom over what you can do with the code, so it's better to avoid situations in which people "steal" code that wasn't supposed to be used
21:09 < dx> Grum: so it was just that, asking for a clarification. i got your answer indirectly i guess, "don't care"
21:09 < dx> ..well rather directly in this channel
21:09 < dx> ..well rather directly in this channel
21:09 < dx> damn up+enter
21:10 < dx> Grum: but all of this seriously makes me wonder, why does this bullshit of "not open source but everyone can still deobfuscate jars freely" continue? why can't you do things right?
21:10 < Grum> dx: its not even my code, we didn't write it
21:11 < Grum> dx: define right?
21:11 < Grum> also what would you like to do against deobfuscation?
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21:12 < dx> Grum: legally right (since there's no such thing as "grey area"), and most importantly don't bother obfuscating if you don't care about what people do with the code
21:12 < dx> Grum: just... apply a decently restrictive license that is still open source.
21:12 < dx> Grum: you probably heard this a thousand of times already, sorry
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21:13 < Grum> yeah just wondering what i'll say next
21:13 < Grum> i mean, we do have some interest in keeping it as it is
21:13 < Grum> there is no benefit for us to change it
21:14 < dx> hah
21:14 < dx> i really like how you have the same explanation for everything
21:14 <+ammar2> and so we come back to the age old "no benefit for us" argument :D
21:14 < dx> consistency is good!
21:14 < Grum> not really, else i'd say it would be low on our list of priorities ;)
21:14 <+ammar2> Grum: how about this, it doesn't hurt you either but it significantly helps devs
21:15 < Grum> oh i can be more consistent, the idea is to not obfuscate anything we do for the api
21:15 <+ammar2> would you not like to make their lives a bit easier
21:15 < Grum> ammar2: helps them how?
21:15 <+ammar2> not having to figure out obf. mappings every release
21:15 < Grum> would there not be a bukkit or mcp or forge? wait they exist
21:15 < Grum> ammar2: not really much of an issue according to the people doing it
21:15 < dx> we could just do the refactoring you don't have time to do, release under the same license, and it's completely legal and all it takes is code reviews
21:16 <+pdelvo> @dav1d nice. I think it is better that way
21:16 < Grum> dx: doesn't really work like that though
21:16 < dav1d> pdelvo: works flawlessly
21:16 < dx> Grum: why not?
21:16 < Grum> because any refactoring is major surgery
21:16 <+pdelvo> :)
21:16 < Grum> which means any of those pullrequests would be close to impossible to accept
21:16 < Not-002> [BraLa] Dav1dde pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±4] http://git.io/a7Xoug
21:17 < Not-002> [BraLa] Dav1dde 0dfde91 - All packets are now processed in the main thread
21:17 < dav1d> there it is!
21:17 < dav1d> got rid of a huge amount of locks
21:17 < dx> then limit pull requests to small changes
21:17 < Grum> dx: which would make it a pointless effort
21:17 < dx> there are ways to improve the current codebase starting with little stuff
21:17 < dx> adding a packet length header isn't pointless
21:17 < Grum> that change wouldn't get accepted
21:17 < dx> gotcha
21:17 < Grum> and thus only take our time
21:18 <+pdelvo> is twitter down?
21:18 <+ammar2> Grum: well its still making their lives easier, often enough only critical stuff which is used in bukkit, forge etc is refactored with pretty names. It'd make the code easier to poke into until something proper can be come up with at no benefit or major caveats to you
21:18 < Grum> dx: i agree we can use more help but i'm not sure doing it that way is 'sane'
21:18 < dx> Grum: then don't accept pull requests. let people mod the stuff, under the condition that every modified and linked file is under the same license
21:19 < dx> Grum: you can just take what you consider useful
21:19 < Grum> but allowing modding would be not really a restrictive license right?
21:19 < dx> restrictive license could be anything
21:19 < dav1d> lol
21:19 < dav1d> I made it segfault, yay
21:20 <+Prf_Jakob> Grum: what do you gain by obfuscating it, if people can deobfuscate the code (while spenind work on it)?
21:21 < Grum> it makes our code more readable :p
21:21 <+Prf_Jakob> Grum: how...?
21:21 < dx> we can already see all shittiness clearly, all we're going to get is the explanation of a few unknown methods and code comments
21:21 < Grum> code comments? we dont have those
21:22 < dx> something less to worry about
21:22 <+pdelvo>  
21:22 <+pdelvo>  
21:22 <+pdelvo> /When I wrote this, only God and I understood what I was doing
21:22 <+pdelvo>  
21:22 <+pdelvo> I really need a better irc client I guess
21:22 <+Prf_Jakob> hehe classic
21:22 < dx> now only god does
21:22 < dav1d> awesome segfault in std.signals
21:23 <+Prf_Jakob> dav1d: oh you are using signals?
21:23 <+Prf_Jakob> lol
21:23 < dav1d> Prf_Jakob: why?
21:23 <+Prf_Jakob> its... odd...
21:23 < dav1d> I like it
21:23 < dav1d> well it has its flaws
21:23 < dav1d> std.signals2 is definitly an improvement
21:23 <+Prf_Jakob> segfaults among others..
21:23 < dav1d> :P
21:23 <+Prf_Jakob> oh didn't know about singals2
21:24 <+ammar2> Grum: but yeah, no obfuscation would be a great gesture to most of the mods out there. You'd be getting rid of the monotonous initial part of the update cycle and since more of the code will be readily understandable you can potentially backmerge stuff in like those old craftbukkit optimizations
21:24 < dav1d> all segfaults I had so far were based that you need to pass a gc allocated delegate (eg. struct methods will segfault)
21:25 < dav1d> omg
21:25 < dav1d> switiching lines → no segfault
21:25 < Grum> ammar2: we'll end up with less obfuscation over time
21:25 < dav1d> not sure if I should be happy or I should cry
21:25 < dx> Grum: "less"? what does that even mean?
21:26 <+Prf_Jakob> dav1d: you died a little bit inside
21:26 < Grum> dx: there will always be obfuscated parts
21:26 < dav1d> Prf_Jakob: go volt!
21:26 < Grum> the parts you shouldnt care for
21:26 <+ammar2> Grum: over time is vague and a cop out, whats wrong with no or minimal obfuscation on the next release
21:26 < dav1d> Prf_Jakob: then I can blame myself is std.signals sucks
21:26 < dav1d> s/is/when/
21:26 <+Prf_Jakob> dav1d: still waiting for your AA code :-p
21:26 < Grum> ammar2: timeinvestment of doing that?
21:27 < dav1d> Prf_Jakob: sorry I dont have much time lately, I hope I can do more on mi-so
21:27 < Grum> i mean we have pieces of code that i'd consider not worth obfuscating already
21:27 < dav1d> eh
21:27 < Grum> but its a huge investment splitting it off right now
21:27 < dav1d> what is the day after tomorrow called?
21:27 < dx> Grum: i'm really curious what stops you from just turning off the obfuscator
21:27 <+ammar2> Grum: time investment of removing a couple of lines of an obfuscation module?
21:27 < Grum> we actually considered it
21:27 <+Prf_Jakob> dav1d: onsdahg
21:27 < dav1d> wednesday?
21:27 <+Prf_Jakob> onsdag*
21:27 < Grum> ammar2: if only :/
21:27 < dav1d> Prf_Jakob: english :P
21:27 <+Prf_Jakob> dav1d: yeah wednesday
21:27 < dav1d> the day after tuesday
21:27 < dav1d> ah kk
21:27 < dav1d> ^^
21:27 < Grum> dx: it does more than just obfuscating
21:28 < dx> i.. i don't get it
21:28 <+ammar2> Grum: could you be a tad bit more specific?
21:29 < Grum> it strips out significant parts of unused code
21:29 <+ammar2> usually an obfuscation setup is as simple as putting in a maven/ant/whatever plugin and enabling it in the config
21:29 < Grum> ammar2: you have to configure the obfuscation
21:29 < balrog> can't you do that without obfuscating names though?
21:29 < Grum> which is far from a trivial task
21:29 < Grum> especially with that horrible thing we use :p
21:29 < dx> you mentioned you run the obfuscator over the launcher without name obfuscation, only removing unused code
21:29 <+ammar2> Grum: its a maximum of like 10 minutes to get a good proguard setup
21:30 < Grum> ammar2: its not
21:30 < Grum> proguard is one of the worst things to ever use :/
21:31 < dx> Grum: i still don't get it, so let's look it from other point of view: do you have some sort of legal agreements with third party coders that force you to obfuscate stuff?
21:32 < Grum> nope, just a horrifying codebase that needs hiding :p
21:32 < Not-002> [BraLa] Dav1dde pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±5] http://git.io/RwoGBQ
21:32 <+ammar2> most of us know how horrible it is, we've dealt with it regularly. Hiding it ain't gonna do much for you
21:32 < Not-002> [BraLa] Dav1dde de83cb8 - All packets are now processed in the main thread
21:33 < dx> what kind of horribleness is MCP missing?
21:33 < dx> i have no idea really
21:33 < dx> unless you care about coding style conventions
21:33 <+ammar2> Grum: how complicated can your setup be? Will it take weeks to configure your obfuscator to only strip off unused bits
21:33 < Grum> ammar2: nope
21:33 <+ammar2> Grum: guesstimate
21:33 < Grum> 11 minutes
21:33 < Grum> but that wont do :)
21:35 <+ammar2> so let me get this straight, you don't want to spend 11 minutes of changing configs for something that provides a benefit to modders
21:35 < Grum> yes
21:35 < dav1d> :D
21:35 < Grum> because we do not intend to completely remove obfuscation
21:36 < dx> Grum: what kind of classes need to be kept obfuscated in your opinion?
21:36 < Grum> the ones you shouldn't care for
21:36 < balrog> yeah, what we're going to have is a "public API" which isn't obfuscated, and everything else is obfuscated
21:36 < Grum> which is part of the core of the engine
21:36 < balrog> ...unless you want to do certain things, yeah
21:36 < Grum> like how worlds are saved, world generation, rendering in general
21:37 < Grum> right now everything is completely entangled
21:37 <+pdelvo> The FBI Trojaner. I _knew_ it!
21:37 < balrog> wgen should be modular
21:37 < Grum> yes, modular not opensource
21:37 < balrog> deobfuscated != opensource
21:37 < Grum> not really
21:37 < Grum> stops no-one from ripping it off in whole
21:38 < Grum> now at least it takes a bit of effort/skill/time
21:38 < dx> Grum: is the reason to hide those classes still because it's horrible? so, you would like to have time to refactor that mess first?
21:38 < balrog> obfuscation stops no-one from ripping off in whole, especially with MCP existing
21:38 < balrog> copyright law does
21:38 < Grum> the people who do wholesale ripping off do not care for laws :p
21:39 < dx> Grum: "effort/skill/time" -> all of that spent by the MCP project in a nearly automated process
21:39 <+ammar2> Grum: who wants to rip off that horrible code base
21:39 < balrog> those people are already ripping it off
21:39 < balrog> and have been since minecraft took off
21:39 < Grum> dx: so what is the problem? you are again saying it is already done
21:39 -!- Yoshi2| [~chatzilla@xdsl-78-35-205-49.netcologne.de] has joined #mcdevs
21:39 <+ammar2> Grum: its unecessary work which takes up modders hours which you can change in 11 minutes
21:40 < dx> Grum: "nearly" automated since it still requires a lot of human work to do the mappings, but could be more if they hadn't written lots of tools for it
21:40 < dx> Grum: this isn't needed.
21:40 < Grum> ammar2: i can do a lot more in 11 minutes
21:40 < Grum> 'a lot of human work' means 'Searge time'
21:40 < Grum> he is one of the people who agrees we should keep obfuscation
21:40 -!- Yoshi2 [~chatzilla@xdsl-87-78-122-121.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:41 -!- Yoshi2| is now known as Yoshi2
21:41 <+ammar2> Grum: what for? as in what's his reasoning to keep obf.
21:42 < Grum> because it would break more than it would 'fix'
21:42 < GudangGaram> well I assume the code works when it's not obfuscated
21:42 <+Prf_Jakob> lets drop this
21:43 < GudangGaram> so the "it'd break more than it'd fix" is a bit of a ... odd one
21:43 <+Prf_Jakob> We are just wasting the Majong people time.
21:43 < Grum> not really, it breaks every single mod out there
21:43 < Grum> for what reason? to work with horridly broken code that will change under your feet anyhow?
21:44 < dx> if the obfuscation changes with every release, deobfuscating counts as changing that too
21:45 < dx> Prf_Jakob: lol "majong". but ok
21:45 -!- SuinDraw [~NiaTeppel@WiseOS/Founder/NiaTeppelin] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:45 <+Prf_Jakob> dx: heh, ops :)
21:45 <+Prf_Jakob> I really should get it right, since its in my language and everything.
21:46 < dx> mahjong
21:46 <+Prf_Jakob> Mojäng!
21:46 <+Prf_Jakob> Grunkapär!
21:46 -!- Yoshi2| [~chatzilla@xdsl-78-35-218-142.netcologne.de] has joined #mcdevs
21:46 <+clonejo> Mëjang!
21:46 -!- Yoshi2 [~chatzilla@xdsl-78-35-205-49.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:47 -!- Yoshi2| is now known as Yoshi2
21:47 < GudangGaram> it's not like the obfuscation really matters, anyone with 2 braincells can download and install MCP and be looking at deobfuscated source in about 10 minutes
21:48 < dx> yeah, that's why the argument of "stealing minecraft and selling it as something else" is a bit short sighted
21:48 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] http://git.io/cGETcg
21:48 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn a271f8f - Update fNbt
21:48 < Grum> so what were you complaining about again?
21:48 < dx> things you don't care about, as usual
21:49 -!- Cay [~OlofLarss@s83-177-171-150.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:49 < Grum> not really, i do care about it
21:49 < Grum> having obfuscation is painful for us too :P
21:49 < dx> whoa
21:49 < dx> just had to do /whois grum to double check i was talking to the right person
21:50 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn pushed 28 commits to refactoring [+8/-0/±93] http://git.io/xg6hzQ
21:50 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] ggrote cd32db8 - - added cleaned chat message to Events/ChatMessageEventArgs.cs - fixed player position (y/stance) - added UpdateSign Handler - fixed MapChunkBulk and ChunkData Handlers - moved reading chunk from stream into single method - added LookAt and "basic" Move to MinecraftClient.Actions - fixed finding blocks by position
21:50 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] ggrote 7c5b15f - - changed ChatHandler to use indexof and remove instead of regex - reverted EntityHandlers.cs - removed braces and changed formatting - changed Move to start an async thread for movement - removed ProtocolVersion and FriendlyVersion as they are not used anymore
21:50 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] ggrote 617af5e - name refactoring
21:50 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] ggrote 903079b - added userid to session
21:50 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn dc43e73 - Upped protocol version
21:50 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 4132736 - Added MinecraftClient.MoveTo
21:50 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 38f03b7 - Cancel current client move operation before starting another
21:50 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 2ab8fa6 - Reponse to cancellation request
21:50 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] aholmes 12c2633 - Fix server crash when sending packets to disconnected clients #155
21:50 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn ebaa56f - Merge pull request #156 from aholmes/master Fix issue #155
21:50 < Grum> whoo Not-002 spam
21:51 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] aholmes 778c19a - Fix issue with players respawning under the map. This is done by adding the PlayerEntity.Height to Level.SpawnPoint. This change also changes storing the PlayerEntity.Height with the position when the user exits. Instead, I opted to add the height wherever needed. This has the effect of not dropping the user twice as high during respawn than during login. Issue #154
21:51 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] aholmes be3e34c - Correct whitespace
21:51 < GudangGaram> Grum: so why have it? If it "breaks" a lot of mods, well, not like that hasn't happened before :P
21:51 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn a6468df - Fix #158
21:51 <+SpaceManiac> \o/
21:51 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 10d2208 - Merge branch 'master' of github.com:SirCmpwn/Craft.Net
21:51 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 05f5b3a - Drop inventory on player death
21:51 < dx> craft.nets everywhere
21:51 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 6e4ea7e - Fix death spamming when falling into the void
21:51 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 330e914 - Slowed down death by void
21:51 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 3303737 - Merge remote-tracking branch 'aholmes/master'
21:51 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn b30f227 - Fix formatting issue with pull request
21:51 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 8277e52 - Removed test code from flatland generator
21:51 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 5ddf97a - Added tab complete event, closes #151
21:51 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 464e36d - Added TabCompleteEventArgs.Handled to avoid sending responses unless needed
21:51 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn a424a9f - Added TabCompleteEventArgs.Client
21:51 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 3be8aef - Fix client bug related to connecting to online mode servers in offline mode
21:51 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn f478f03 - Added overloads to do DNS lookups and such for the user
21:51 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn f480ba5 - Added support for dropping item stacks in creative mode
21:51 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn a271f8f - Update fNbt
21:51 < Not-002> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 7d8d7c2 - Merge master into refactoring
21:51 < Grum> seriously we're getting 28 lines of spam here now?
21:51 < GudangGaram> looks it
21:51 <+SpaceManiac> I don't think that's supposed to happen
21:51 < Grum> >.>
21:51 < Grum> time for a bot-ban!
21:52 < dx> Grum: i believe TkTech wrote notifico as a quick hack to replace the dead CIA bot and never had time to limit the amount of messages properly
21:52 < GudangGaram> aaaanyway now that that's done
21:53 < TkTech> Pfft, that's nothing. https://github.com/TkTech/notifico/issues/26
21:54 -!- barneygale [~barneygal@cpc18-sotn9-2-0-cust33.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #mcdevs
21:54 < TkTech> (Weirdly, kgb and irker do the same thing, even though they have a lot more eyes and work hours)
21:54 < dx> oh it's python
21:55 < dx> i could just figure out how to get it running and, well, fix the issue since nobody else cares
21:55 <+Prf_Jakob> TkTech: oh did you see the link I pasted a while ago?
21:55 -!- redu_ [redu_@unaffiliated/redu] has quit []
21:55 < TkTech> Prf_Jakob: I haven't yet, will check in a minute
21:55 < TkTech> dx: "python setup.py install; python -m notifico www --debug" annnd you're running.
21:56 <+Prf_Jakob> TkTech: here it is again anyways :) http://neural-boost.com/images/eve_odyssey/paladin.jpg
21:56 < TkTech> (Don't bother fixing anything UI or bot-messaging related, there's a branch 47 commits ahead that completely revamps it)
21:57 <+Prf_Jakob> TkTech: And something for you http://neural-boost.com/images/eve_odyssey/navy_apoc.jpg
21:57 < TkTech> Prf_Jakob: There was a second link wasn't there? My scrollback is gone.
21:57 < dx> TkTech: cool!
21:57 < dx> TkTech: wait, what's bot-messaging?
21:57 <+Prf_Jakob> TkTech: http://neural-boost.com/odyssey#odyssey-8-5
21:57 < TkTech> dx: The relay over redis to get the formatted messages to the bot.
21:58 < dx> TkTech: oh ok
22:00 < TkTech> Prf_Jakob: Hnnnng~
22:00 < TkTech> Prf_Jakob: My glorious yellow banana!
22:00 <+Prf_Jakob> heh
22:02 <+Prf_Jakob> The mcdevs moderation apologies for the Eve related interuption in servicies, we will now resume the regular obfuscation discussion.
22:02 <+Prf_Jakob> moderation team*
22:03 < dx> ëgíóéëgñéëíóg
22:03 < dx> oh wait you meant obfuscation discussion not obfuscated discussion
22:04 <+Prf_Jakob> hehe :)
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22:04 < dx> not much else to talk about
22:04 <+AndrewPH> my hauppauge keeps turning off and on
22:04 < dx> and Grum can do a lot of things in 11 minutes, so let's not waste more instances of "11 grum minutes"
22:05 <+AndrewPH> it made the "plug in" sound every time 
22:05 < GudangGaram> obfuscation is a waste of time >.> let me throw in a loaded statement
22:06 -!- eddyb [~eddy@unaffiliated/eddyb] has joined #mcdevs
22:11 < Grum> GudangGaram: that one is really loaded!
22:11 < dx> really!
22:12 < GudangGaram> very :P
22:13 < GudangGaram> because security through obscurity is no security at all - not that it applies to MC but the general idea behind it still stands
22:13 <+AndrewPH> it's almost as loaded as a loaded potato burrito from taco bell
22:13 -!- zh32|away is now known as zh32
22:16 < GudangGaram> I wouldn't know Andrew, there's no taco bell here :(
22:17 < TkTech> GudangGaram: I think you misunderstand a lot of the reasoning behind it.