18:17 < dx> AnotherOne confirmed for pbunny clone
18:17 < AnotherOne> lol
18:18 < dx> :P
18:18 <+pdelvo> the problem was that md_5 was teaching him and he was right :D
18:18 < AnotherOne> usage of java slyle in c may lead to disaster
18:18 < Demos> well OOP methods CAN be good in C code or not, just like that CAN be good in java or not
18:18 < dx> it's not really about "java", it's about "i don't want to hear what you're telling me"
18:19 <+pdelvo> in the files he was doing his world stuff he was reding packets...
18:22 < Not-001> [PartyCraft] SirCmpwn pushed 2 commits to master [+0/-0/±2] http://git.io/DBt9iw
18:22 < Not-001> [PartyCraft] aholmes c706255 - Fix typo. http://www.reddit.com/r/csharp/comments/1ez7e7/writing_c_code_from_within_minecraft_on_a_custom/ca5h03m
18:22 < Not-001> [PartyCraft] SirCmpwn 77b6dfc - Merge pull request #10 from aholmes/master Fix typo
18:29 < dx> ...why say "pull requests welcome" for that, lol
18:32 <+ammar2> to encourage other people to contribute
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18:40 < dx> it's a typo..
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18:51 < AnotherOne|2> 123
18:51 < AnotherOne|2> [19:43:34] Vortality: Message_SuperLongClassNameRulesWtfNigga
18:51 < AnotherOne|2> oh
18:52 < AnotherOne|2> dat kvirc
18:53 < AnotherOne|2> 321
18:53 < AnotherOne|2> how to change name?
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18:54 < dx> pro
18:56 < AnotherOne> sure
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19:34 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn pushed 3 commits to master [+0/-0/±4] http://git.io/JQ-71Q
19:34 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn a6468df - Fix #158
19:34 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 10d2208 - Merge branch 'master' of github.com:SirCmpwn/Craft.Net
19:34 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 05f5b3a - Drop inventory on player death
19:38 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] http://git.io/cng2-w
19:38 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 6e4ea7e - Fix death spamming when falling into the void
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19:40 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] http://git.io/vJNXbQ
19:40 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 330e914 - Slowed down death by void
19:45 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn pushed 3 commits to master [+0/-0/±5] http://git.io/L1UnBQ
19:45 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] aholmes 778c19a - Fix issue with players respawning under the map. This is done by adding the PlayerEntity.Height to Level.SpawnPoint. This change also changes storing the PlayerEntity.Height with the position when the user exits. Instead, I opted to add the height wherever needed. This has the effect of not dropping the user twice as high during respawn than during login. Issue #154
19:45 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] aholmes be3e34c - Correct whitespace
19:45 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 3303737 - Merge remote-tracking branch 'aholmes/master'
19:47 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] http://git.io/bX1oBQ
19:47 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn b30f227 - Fix formatting issue with pull request
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20:01 < Demos> hey, do you guys think bash trickery could be usefull when writing mod install scripts, I am trying to decide if I want to require windows users to install bash or to just say "only use simple commands in your scirpts that will work in both bash and powershell"
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20:21 < kryton> hi.. newb here... i was wondering if there was a python library (or even java) that understands the minecraft protocol. I want to write a server-admin tool to run a single-server
20:21 < kryton> (or better yet) is there a OSS tool out there already?
20:26 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] http://git.io/_ae2tg
20:26 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 8277e52 - Removed test code from flatland generator
20:26 < AnotherOne> did you look here? http://wiki.vg/Library_List
20:27 < Not-001> [PartyCraft] SirCmpwn pushed 2 commits to master [+0/-0/±4] http://git.io/AvkOqQ
20:27 < Not-001> [PartyCraft] SirCmpwn 773c243 - Update Craft.Net submodule
20:27 < Not-001> [PartyCraft] SirCmpwn 2eb3049 - Merge branch 'master' of github.com:SirCmpwn/PartyCraft
20:29 <+SpaceManiac> kryton: take a look at https://github.com/bravoserver/bravo - it's a server but you might find some parts useful
20:31 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn pushed 1 commit to master [+1/-0/±3] http://git.io/7XW-jg
20:31 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 5ddf97a - Added tab complete event, closes #151
20:34 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±2] http://git.io/RHRS0g
20:34 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn 464e36d - Added TabCompleteEventArgs.Handled to avoid sending responses unless needed
20:35 < kryton> thanks SpaceManiac & AnotherOne .. i'll check them out
20:40 < kryton> this stuff is pretty cool.. is there a webapp that can start/stop servers edit properties etc as well?
20:41 < dx> uh
20:41 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±2] http://git.io/wCVUKg
20:41 < Not-001> [Craft.Net] SirCmpwn a424a9f - Added TabCompleteEventArgs.Client
20:41 < dx> kryton: what do you want to do exactly? you don't need to use the minecraft protocol for that stuff
20:41 < kryton> I want to write a webapp that can stop my girls pinging me @work to restart the server/load new worlds
20:42 < kryton> as well as chat to them while they are online, and de-ban their friends
20:43 < kryton> thought i might need the minecraft protocol to do stop server cleanly as well (instead of kill -9'ing it)
20:43 < dx> then no, no minecraft protocol at all
20:44 < kryton> ok..sweet
20:45 < dx> you just need rcon and maybe a server wrapper script (that does something when the java process quits)
20:46 < kryton> ok.. is there a proxy that lets them choose worlds when they log in? (so we could host multiple worlds on a single port)
20:46 < dx> er..
20:46 < dx> you'll want to use bukkit for that kind of stuff
20:47 < dx> you can do it with a proxy, but i'm not sure if any project like that is still maintained
20:47 < kryton> ok.. thx
20:47 < dx> bukkit+multiverse
20:47 < kryton> i'll see if i can get a simple admin app first.. then focus on that
20:48 < dx> but yeah, rcon is the protocol you need
20:48 < kryton> thx again dx
20:51 <+ammar2> eww rcon, there's quite a bit of web panel plugins out there you can probably use
20:51 <+ammar2> for bukkit that is
20:52 < kryton> not using bukkit.. just plain minecraft_server.jar for now
20:52 < kryton> although they want to do plugins like horse-riding and stuff
20:53 < dx> ammar2: what's wrong with rcon? :(
20:53 < dx> kryton: wat
20:53 <+ammar2> dx: apart from plaintext password tranmission?
20:54 <+ammar2> s/tranmission/transmission/
20:54 < Demos> can you rcon via ssh?
20:54 < dx> ammar2: what's wrong with doing that from localhost?
20:54 < dx> Demos: ye
20:54 < kryton> Demos: you can set up a SSH-encrypted port connection via -L 
20:54 < kryton> Demos: on ANY TCP connection
20:55 <+ammar2> dx: not much but localhost only severly limits it, no
20:55 < dx> ammar2: so uhm, anything else apart from that?
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21:10 < Not-001> [PartyCraft] SirCmpwn pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±4] http://git.io/b0C8LQ
21:10 < Not-001> [PartyCraft] SirCmpwn 46c9689 - Implemented tab complete
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--- Day changed dim. mai 26 2013
00:00 < Not-001> [mc-erl] clonejo pushed 4 commits to master [+0/-0/±5] http://git.io/95jUkQ
00:00 < Not-001> [mc-erl] clonejo 5517258 - extended .gitignore
00:00 < Not-001> [mc-erl] clonejo c477740 - show module in console log
00:00 < Not-001> [mc-erl] clonejo 3b8bde4 - refactored mc_erl_app:os_run/0
00:00 < Not-001> [mc-erl] clonejo c271723 - Revisiting role of mc_erl_eid, will now supply anyone with eids.
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00:47 < Not-001> [mc-erl] clonejo pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±4] http://git.io/QIByjQ
00:47 < Not-001> [mc-erl] clonejo 42fbfcf - finished mc_erl_client_lib, working on mc_erl_client [NOT WORKING]
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00:55 < Not-001> [mc-erl] clonejo pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] http://git.io/hqWHCA
00:55 < Not-001> [mc-erl] clonejo 669c11b - hopefully fixed compilation issue
00:56 <+md_5> can we actually just fix the Minecraft protocol :| I mean if the mojangstas are so hell bent on json, why dont we wipe out NBT and rredo some of the packets
00:56 <+clonejo> md_5: We could define our own protocol to use between our custom servers and clients.
00:56 <+md_5> clonejo custom server tools far outnumber custom clients
00:56 <+md_5> there are *no* custom clients in use
00:57 <+clonejo> We could do a protocol critic page on the wiki
00:58 <+clonejo> with enhancement suggestions
00:58 -!- Sanjay [4a5839cb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.88.57.203] has joined #mcdevs
00:58 < Sanjay> Hey ther
00:58 < Sanjay> Anyone around?
00:58 <+md_5> Grum mentioned something about if we wanted something in MC to make an API and then provide sample impleentation with MCP, although that doesnt really work for packets since they would still have to do all the heavy lifting
00:59 < Sanjay> Hey
00:59 < Sanjay> Hows it going
00:59 <+md_5> also, dual stack udp+tcp would be an idea dont you think clonejo ? use udp for move packets that we dont give a toss if dont arrive
00:59 <+md_5> not bad
00:59 <+md_5> also shit like: Note: When this packet is sent from the server, the 'Y' and 'Stance' fields are swapped. 
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01:00 < Sanjay> I was wondering what packet I would need to send for a player to drop something from his creative inventory.
01:00 <+md_5> does that still happen?
01:00 <+md_5> hmm creative inventory...
01:00 <+md_5> Sanjay you want; Click Window (0x66)  I imagine
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01:01 < dav1d> md_5: well will udp really bring a benefit?
01:01 <+md_5> dav1d I think in some cases dualstack would
01:02 <+md_5> client to server and server to client  player/entity position updates
01:02 < Sanjay> Ok,that seems about right. It says window 0 is player inventory, would that also be for creative inventory?
01:02 <+ammar2> eww dual stack
01:02 <+md_5> maybe time updates too
01:02 <+ammar2> also keep in mind that the current encryption scheme wont work with udp
01:02 <+md_5> anything where we dont have to implement an ACK system
01:02 < dav1d> md_5: I don't think this would make the protocol simplier or even better
01:02 <+md_5> ammar2 we can just use the same keys in a block cipher
01:02 < dav1d> ammar2: who needs encryption for movement?
01:03 <+ammar2> dav1d: no one :D
01:03 < dav1d> right
01:03 < dav1d> just drop it all together
01:03 < dav1d> only sensible is probably chat
01:03 < dav1d> which needs tcp anyways
01:03 < dav1d> or some kind of tcp emulated tcp
01:04 <+md_5> even the metadata (which they moved around all the indexes in 1.6) should be json, not this bullshit made up format
01:04 <+ammar2> tcp emulated tcp
01:04 <+ammar2> wat
01:05 <+md_5> ammar2 he meant a tcp impl based on udp, which is a silly idea
01:05 <+ammar2> not silly, thatswhat everyone does
01:05 < dav1d> ammar2: udp emulated tcp
01:05 <+md_5> not quite
01:05 < dav1d> yeah it is
01:05 <+md_5> Spawn Experience Orb (0x1A) 
01:05 <+md_5> why is that its own packet
01:05 < dav1d> but having to connection for a minimal gain is also kinda stuipid (imo)
01:06 <+md_5> Update Sign (0x82)   <-- should be tile entity data
01:06 < dav1d> I mean what you gain is not really huge
01:06 <+md_5>  Item Data (0x83) <-- should be item stack data
01:06 <+md_5> dav1d if we consolidated all the position updates (0xA-D) over udp, sending all fields, the bandwidth would be the same as using the lowest denominator of those packets
01:06 <+md_5> and we nuke 3 packets in the process
01:07 <+md_5> My biggest bitch about MC is how they make a new packet instead of repurposing old ones
01:07 <+md_5> right now to make a client you need to implement 81 packets
01:07 <+md_5> that is a few hours of just writing decode methods
01:08 <+md_5> Tab-complete (0xCB)   could be a special json packet, now that we have tat
01:08 <+md_5>  Plugin Message (0xFA)   really needs an int header as opposed to short
01:08 <+md_5> Server List Ping (0xFE)   really needs to send the hostname as well as protocol version
01:09 < dav1d> md_5: so you would open a second connection after the handshake in udp?
01:09 <+md_5> 0x01:  Dimension 	byte 	0 	-1: nether, 0: overworld, 1: end                 should be bumped up to a short
01:09 <+md_5> dav1d I say after encryption, so {0xCD,0x00}
01:09 < dav1d> yeah
01:10 < dav1d> well this works, but would probably need a lot of refactoring in the minecraft code
01:10 <+md_5> the respawn and login packets should be merged
01:10 <+md_5> send a small login packet
01:10 <+md_5> then follow it by a respawn packet
01:10 <+md_5> atm they duplicate info
01:11 <+md_5> 0x0A-D should also be merged, I mean if we have json, who cares about the bandwidth of a few extra doubles. Using UDP with all the doubles is still better than tcp in terms of B/w
01:11 < Sanjay> Hey sorry to interupt... But I was looking at the Windows part of the 0x66 packet (http://www.wiki.vg/Inventory#Windows). I cant seem to find a creative inventory window in there.
01:11 < dav1d> there are a few flaws
01:11 <+md_5> Sanjay the creative window is client side as far as I know
01:11 < dav1d> Sanjay: that is probably a client thing, if the client is in creative he opens that instead of the normal
01:12 < Sanjay> Well the client has to send some sort of packet when the user adds an item from creaetive inventory into his regular inventory correct?
01:12 < Sanjay> Or even drops it
01:13 <+md_5> Sanjay not afaik, I remember in bukkit I patched a bug where the client could spawn water source blocks even when they werent in his inventory
01:13 <+md_5> dav1d all this entiti relative move should be scrapped and we can just use absolute values over udp
01:13 < Sanjay> Hmmm... So I would need to first add it to the inventory and then place it/ drop it?
01:14 <+md_5> I think you can just say drop(new ItemStack(whatToDrop, countToDrop))
01:14 <+md_5> or however your client works
01:14 < Sanjay> I dont have any "drop" method implemented yet...
01:14 < dav1d> md_5: there should be a lot done
01:15 < Sanjay> Isnt ItemStack a bukkit object?
01:15 <+md_5> Sanjay Im just making up an example
01:15 <+md_5> Increment Statistic (0xC8)   could be done via udp, it spams a bit and who cares if your stats are off by a few %
01:16 < Sanjay> So basically your saying I could just use the same method to drop an item that is not in my inventory (in creative inventory) that I use to drop a regular item in my inventory?
01:16 <+md_5> yyes
01:16 < Sanjay> So it doesn't even need to be in the inventory?
01:16 <+md_5> as far as I know, no
01:17 < Sanjay> So I would go about this using the 0x0E packet?
01:17 < Sanjay> (player digging)
01:18 <+md_5> I think you need 0x66, grabbing a proxy and inspecting a vanilla client doing it is a good idea
01:18 <+md_5> I dont know for sure
01:18 < Sanjay> It says one of the status codes are drop item
01:18 <+md_5> yeah, for survival, when using q
01:19 < Sanjay> I dont see a field for the "type" of block to drop in 0x0E. Does it drop whatever is selected?
01:20 <+md_5> again
01:20 <+md_5> for creative use 0x66
01:20 <+md_5> if you are unsure get a proxy and confirm
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01:22 < Sanjay> What would a proxy do? Show me the outgoing packets?
01:23 <+md_5> yes
01:24 <+clonejo> Sanjay: the window_click packet is also when clicking outside the inventory window
01:24 <+clonejo> eg. dropping an item
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01:25 < Sanjay> But what would I send for the "slot" value...
01:26 <+md_5> the Slot value is an itemstack data
01:26 < Sanjay> Would a program like this work for inspecting outgoing packets sent by the client? http://www.snapfiles.com/get/smartsniff.html
01:27 <+md_5> https://github.com/SirCmpwn/SMProxy
01:27 <+md_5> might not be 1.5.2 though
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01:32 < Sanjay> +clonejo The 0x66 has mode 4 button 0 for "Left click outside inventory holding nothing". But how would I do that holding something?
01:33 <+clonejo> the server has to track any action of the player in the inventory (eg. clicking slots)
01:34 <+clonejo> and predict the outcomes of all these actions
01:37 < Sanjay> So how would I go about say left clicking a redstone block and then left clicking outside of the inventory window with it
01:37 <+md_5> you are familar with the itemstack protocol format, right.
01:37 <+md_5> just send 0x66 with your desired itemstack as the slot
01:38 <+md_5> --
01:38 <+md_5> The structure consists of at least a short, which gives the item/block ID [1]. A value of -1 signifies that the slot is empty, and no further data follows.
01:38 <+md_5> If the block ID is not -1, three more fields follow. These fields are a byte (item count), a short (item damage), and another short (length of optional NBT data).
01:38 <+md_5> If the short (length of NBT data) is -1, there is no NBT data, and no further data follows. Otherwise, a byte array will follow.
01:38 <+md_5> The byte array contains gzipped (that is RFC 1952 rather than RFC 1950) NBT data. The format of this data is as follows: 
01:41 < Sanjay> So once I get to slot, I should writeShort with block ID, writeByte with the item count, and than writeShort with item damage and then writeShort with -1 for no NBT data?
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01:47 < Sanjay> All seperate right?
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02:18 < Sanjay> +md_5, I tried using 0x66 to drop the item, but it doesnt work. The code on this page runs every 30 seconds for keep alive packet. The first time, it does nothing, and the player just stays in the game, but the second time the loop runs, the player just leavs the game with no error client side or server side. It works fine without the 0x66 packet: http://paste.md-5.net/curagadawe.avrasm 
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03:06 < Sanjay> Hello? +md_5 are you here?
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03:51 <+md_5> Sanjay cant be of much more assistance
03:56 < Sanjay> ;(
04:04 < Sanjay> What do I need to do?
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08:10 < Not-001> [fCraft] fragmer * r1983 6 files : Finished moving bulk of the GUI handlers from ConfigGUI.AddWorldPopup to fCraftGUI.RealisticMapGenGUI
08:20 < Not-001> [fCraft] fragmer * r1984 2 files : Temporary fix for AddWorldPopup compile errors. Everything compiles, woo.
08:28 < Not-001> [fCraft] fragmer * r1985 2 files : Cleaning up unused dependencies in AddWorldPopup
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08:53 < dx> 19:55 <+md_5> can we actually just fix the Minecraft protocol :| I mean if the mojangstas are so hell bent on json, why dont we wipe out NBT and rredo some of the packets
08:53 < dx> md_5: but i like NBT ;_;
08:54 < dx> (it's better than json)
08:57 <+md_5> dx not really, regardless, the protocol is too derp and needs to be fixed
08:57 <+md_5> badly
08:57 <+md_5> but mojang doesnt give a flying f*** about it and would rather spend time on other useless things
08:57 <+md_5> then call fixing the protocol useless
08:57 <+md_5> youtubers are more important than us
08:57 < dx> i'm pretty sure that choosing json is a way of saying "all of this sucks, let's do it differently"
08:58 < dx> a poor way to say it, but...
08:58 <+Matvei> Is it text-based JSON, or BSON/
08:58 < dx> text based
08:59 <+Matvei> That seems wasteful
08:59 < dx> never heard of BSON, is it the """standard""" way of writing json in a more compact way?
09:00 < dx> i mean there's other implementations (lol protocol buffers)
09:00 < dx> but my point was, if we're going to do that, there's NBT
09:01 <+Matvei> BSON is fairly common. It can represent any data that JSON can, just more compactly
09:01 <+Matvei> (well, there are a couple additions, like a byte array type)
09:02 < dx> byte array = just a string without utf-8 decoding?
09:03 <+Matvei> Effectively, yes. But BSON implementations actually treat it as a byte array
09:05 <+md_5> Matvei bson and nbt
09:05 <+md_5> are like.. the sae
09:05 <+md_5> same
09:05 <+md_5> just different formats
09:05 <+Matvei> Yeah pretty much. I was pretty happy with NBT, honestly.
09:05 <+md_5> but still, I dont actually think json has much if any more overhead than nbt
09:05 <+md_5> since every nbt tag is named
09:06 <+md_5> and so is every json tag
09:06 <+md_5> and nbt has a format byte, whereas json might have a quote or bracket
09:06 <+md_5> so in the end it will be the same size
09:08 <+Matvei> NBT fields declare their type though, so you know exactly how many bytes to read. JSON requires a bit of parsing to figure out field size
09:08 <+Matvei> Makes linear parsing slower and more wasteful
09:09 <+Matvei> Also numeric types take up more bytes (effectively using 4 out of 8 bytes per character), extra separators (brackets/quotes/commas/decimal points), etc
09:09 <+Matvei> All adds up
09:09 <+md_5> true
09:10 <+md_5> Matvei but remember, mojang doesnt give a toss about packet sizes
09:10 <+Matvei> *4 out of 8 bits per character, rather
09:10 <+md_5> -> json chat
09:10 <+md_5> why isnt chat nbt eh?
09:10 <+Matvei> I care about bytes, I get to pay for my community's bandwidth :P
09:10 < dx> "if you care about size compress it"
09:10 < dx> "if you care about cpu time thread it"
09:11  * dx still rages about that
09:11 <+md_5> dx soo lets have a json encode thread and a compression threa
09:11 <+md_5> d
09:11 <+md_5> gogogogo
09:11 < dx> that shit seems to work for HTTP servers, but those have completely different scalability properties
09:12 < dx> -.-"
09:12 <+md_5> seriously, my proxy sometimes has to do 100 messages a second from a couple thousand users
09:12 <+md_5> now it has to do 100 json decodes a second as well
09:13 < dx> heh yeah, your proxy is the best way to tell mojang that there's some people who actually want to scale and this is just making it harder
09:14 <+Zaneo> Matvei, how does femto compare to vanilla in terms of footprint?
09:14 < dx> what can a single minecraft server handle, usually? is it 200 players? they'd just think you can put an octacore on it and have 7 spare cores
09:15 <+md_5> dx right now I'm limited to about 2000 players without burning up the CPU. I'm slowly but surely aggressively optimizing it, but I feel 3000 is an absolute peak. The problem also is that the CPU usage at lower players is comparatively high, but then it peaks very wuickly
09:15 <+Matvei> Zaneo, memory footprint? Femto is a few megabytes of base use + map size, that's it.
09:15 <+md_5> (by low I mean 200-400 players)
09:15 <+Matvei> About 20 MB with the default map size, if I remember correctly
09:16 < dx> md_5: 2000 with bungee or with a single vanilla/bukkit/spigot?
09:16 <+md_5> because MC sends so many packets it runs a very quick fetch decode execute cycle
09:16 <+md_5> dx 2000 on a bungee
09:16 <+md_5> spigot caps out at 500
09:16 <+Zaneo> Heh good luck with that
09:16 < dx> oh ok
09:16 <+md_5> and to get 500 you need a 4.5ghz overclocked 3770k processor
09:16 < dx> lol..
09:16 <+Zaneo> More
09:16 <+Zaneo> You need ssds
09:17 <+md_5> thats the most I've ever seen on a spigot server with 20tps, 500 exactly
09:17 < dx> i'm pretty sure he's already assuming the whole world on ramdisk
09:17 <+md_5> yeah Zaneo I'm talking uber optimzed setup
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09:19 <+md_5> dx the thing that would help bungee scalability most is a packet ID header
09:19 <+md_5> because at the moment it needs to parse every packet.. I do this very efficiently, but sometimes its not enough
09:19 <+md_5> *packet length header
09:19 < dx> md_5: dude. i love your project
09:19 <+md_5> so do I
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09:20 < dx> md_5: i bet everyone in this channel would like to have that packet length header but you have the best reason to force them to add it
09:20 <+md_5> dx the most requested feature I get is virtual hosting in the server ping tab without srv records
09:20 <+md_5> I have virtual hosting
09:20 <+md_5> but it shows a global count in the ping tab
09:21 <+md_5> and I just have to reply: "Mojang says no, use SRV records"
09:22 <+md_5> its not even like its hard for mojang to add, its just they treat 3rd party developers like shit, and mapmakers and youtubers like god
09:22 < SinZ> ^
09:23 <+Zaneo> On a side note, who is still developing it, I don't really follow them anymore
09:23 < dx> "it"?
09:23 <+Zaneo> minecraft
09:23 < SinZ> Jeb, Grum and Dinnerbone
09:23 < dx> ...i was trying to say that without pinging them
09:23 < dx> oh well
09:23 <+md_5> oh
09:23 <+md_5> also a packet to be able to reset a clients entity ID
09:24 <+md_5> (the one given in 0x01)
09:24 < dx> reset?
09:24 <+md_5> I would kill babies for it
09:24 < dexter0> so what happened to EvilS3ph then :P
09:24 <+md_5> dx change it
09:24 <+md_5> dexter0 he never did anything, stuck up  arsehole. doesnt even develop bukkit, just changes the version number every release
09:24 < SinZ> dexter0: he spends his entire time on the bug tracker and mod api AFAIK
09:25 <+md_5> not even SinZ , just doing minor things and then acting like he is god and they are his babies: ie bug tracker
09:25 < dx> oh i forgot that guy was in mojang too. seriously. he's just PR for bukkit
09:25 <+md_5> (excuse me if I'm bitter about EvilSeph, I spent 18 months of my life working for the arsehole)
09:25 < dx> errr public relations not pull request
09:25 <+md_5> dx if by PR you mean destroyer of PR and lead of 'damage control' when the community revolts, sure
09:26 < dx> md_5: i didn't say anything about how he handled it
09:26 <+md_5> anyway, be back in 20 minutes
09:26 <+md_5> then more exam study
09:33 < dx> it really sucks that having vanilla clients with vanilla launchers is an important requirement for a lot of people
09:34 < dx> we can't just go and mod the protocol on both sides and tell people that they need to use a different client with no extra features other than having a less dumb protocol
09:35 < dexter0> except, where are the custom clients that are even near feature complete?
09:35 < dx> i wasn't talking about custom clients, i was talking about modded vanilla clients
09:36 < dx> same shitty java codebase, modified packets
09:36 < dx> just as a transition, of course, but we need to show them the benefits
09:42 < Not-001> [fCraft] fragmer * r1986 13 files : Added DefaultMapGenGui/DefaultMapGenGuiProvider, as fallback for gens that do not provide a custom Gui. Basically, it's a PropertyGrid with some boilerplate code.
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09:43 < AnotherOne> hello people
09:44 < AnotherOne> AnotherOne's Awesome C++ Minecraft Protocol 0.1 is done!
09:44 < dexter0> is it public yet?
09:45 < AnotherOne> no:)
09:45 < dx> vaporware!
09:45 < eddyb> AnotherOne: what did you end up using?
09:46 < AnotherOne> in other words please:)
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09:46 < AnotherOne> my english is so english
09:46 < eddyb> engrish
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09:48 < SinZ> dx: the problem is, we are running out of benefits
09:48 < dx> SinZ: 'running out'? are they doing something to improve the situation?
09:48 <+md_5> uh
09:49 <+md_5> I would go out of my way, to spend my $$$$ time designing AND implementing a new MC protocol if I got an agreement with mojang that it would be implemented once a community consensus + review from their side was complete
09:49 <+AndrewPH> jesus please
09:49 <+md_5> I think at least half the issue is the fact that they wont spend their time on people like us
09:49 < eddyb> AnotherOne: what did you use for the code?
09:50 <+md_5> instead they spend their time on youtubers
09:50 <+md_5> because then they get credit from the youtubers
09:50 <+md_5> and then the youtuber fanbois turn into mojang fanbois
09:50 < dx> md_5: please skip the rant about the youtubers when you talk to them about this
09:50  * md_5 deletes message he had ready
09:50 < dx> :D
09:51 <+md_5> Ill stick with
09:51 <+md_5>  I would go out of my way, to spend my $$$$ time designing AND implementing a new MC protocol if I got an agreement with mojang that it would be implemented once a community consensus + review from their side was complete. I think at least half the issue is the fact that they wont spend their time on people like us.
09:51 < dx> but yeah, if there's some proper legal contract, you should be able to refactor the code directly, right?
09:52  * md_5 is open to legal contracts, but like that is gonna happen
09:52 < dx> i meant a contract that gives you access to the codebase temporarily under some conditions :P
09:52  * md_5 has seen some pretty dodgy shit in private minecraft servers that he cannot detail any further
09:52 < dx> o_o
09:53 <+md_5> http://www.wiki.vg/Wrapper_List   ... that page
09:53 < AnotherOne> eddyb: c++ and a small hand-made code generator
09:53  * md_5 think all people with voice should be given permission to rename and delete wiki pages
09:53 < dx> just with the name i'm sure it was a page that wasn't updated in years
09:53 < AnotherOne> reading from vector buffer and throwing exception if there are not enough bytes
09:54 < eddyb> AnotherOne: so the same crappy thing?
09:54 < eddyb> meh
09:54 < eddyb> I wanted to help you :P
09:54 <+md_5> better way is to make a wrapper buffer that throws an exception when it cant read the desired data type
09:54 < AnotherOne> why crappy?:)
09:54 <+md_5> readInt() {assert readadbleBytes >= 4, super.readInt()}
09:55 <+md_5> dx what is your minecraft iGN?
09:55 < dx> md_5: dequis
09:55 < AnotherOne> md_5: this is a good variant too
09:55 <+md_5> https://github.com/dequis
09:55 <+md_5> I is stalker
09:55 < dx> lol
09:56 < dx> yes i wrote the long rant in the gist and my name is right there in the github profile
09:56 <+md_5> ohg
09:56 <+md_5> right.. you wrote that rant
09:56 <+md_5> +1
09:56 < dx> :D
09:56 <+md_5> I am gonna write 1 proposal to mojang though, refactor 0x01 and 0x09
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09:57 < dx> the first message i wrote had a slightly positive opinion, BTW, since i've had a pending patch for craftirc to translate all the irc formatting codes and it's blocked because of § parsing bugs
09:58 < AnotherOne> http://www.wiki.vg/Protocol#Player_.280x0A.29
09:58 <+md_5> in fact, just delete 0x09 and merge it into 0x01 or vice versa
09:58 < AnotherOne> i got this trying to connect to bukkit server
09:58 <+md_5> yes? what about it?
09:58 < dx> did bukkit tell you that you're grounded?
09:59 < AnotherOne> is it ok for bukkit to send client to server message?
09:59 < Calinou> "community consensus"
09:59 < Calinou> >community
09:59 < Calinou> >reaches a consensus
09:59 < Calinou> --thexyz
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09:59 < SinZ> md_5: deleting 0x09 and mering to 0x01 and renaming the packet to Spawn would be nice
09:59 <+md_5> I think between the prominent members of this channel we can reach a rough 4/5'ths majority
10:00 <+md_5> SinZ yah, and being able to set the entityId in said packet. I would be soo happy
10:00 < SinZ> and trimming the packets down
10:00 < dx> Calinou: i'm pretty sure we all can agree in the most important and general stuff, at least
10:00 < SinZ> ie the not-used sections of packets
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10:01 < SinZ> md_5: only derp with merging, is having to send maxPlayers more often than just once
10:01 <+md_5> SinZ I was thinking that, too
10:01 <+md_5> like where could we put it
10:02 < SinZ> maybe just trim Packet 0x01 to be stuff only needed once
10:02 <+md_5> SinZ atm all that would be is maxPlayers
10:02 < SinZ> and at the end of handshake, send Login AND respawn
10:02 <+md_5> SinZ or we can just send it all the time and allow for resizing which would be cool
10:03 < SinZ> Not that the player list is used by any not-vannila instance
10:03 < SinZ> as everyone over-nerfs the packet sending
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10:06 < SinZ> md_5: and while we are trimming the protocol, 0xC8 can be destroyed
10:06 <+md_5> SinZ is it not used?
10:06 < SinZ> server has no reason to care about achievements, and client can spoof them anyway
10:07 < dx> hm, it's still a feature that exists though
10:07 <+AndrewPH> the 'achievements' feature should be nuked imo
10:07 < dx> you could just choose not to send it
10:07 <+md_5> client calculates its own acheivements too doesnt it?
10:07 < dx> yeah
10:08 <+md_5> mojang plz listen to us
10:08 < dx> but statistics and achievements are different features
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10:12 < dx> also, Ｇｒｕｍ said there was no way to predict the size of some packets
10:12 < dx> he meant the ones with metadata / slot data, right? am i mising anything else?
10:13 <+md_5> dx so?
10:13 <+md_5> you write to a buf
10:13 <+md_5> and then prepend to said buf
10:13 < dx> yeah... that's what i was thinking
10:13 < dx> there's nothing that can't be fixed without a wrapper like that
10:13 < Calinou> Grµm looks more awesome, dx :P
10:14 < dx> Calinou: i see a ? in a circle, use utf-8 please
10:14 < Calinou> no u
10:14 < dx> oh xchat, xchat defaults to hybrid latin1 utf-8, see here http://xchat.org/encoding/
10:15 < SinZ> dx: im on hexchat and it appeared fine
10:15 <+Zaneo> ^
10:15 < Calinou> changed all networks to UTF-8
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10:15 < dx> wat
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10:15 < Calinou> Grµm => does this work now?
10:16 < dx> SinZ: as i said, xchat/hexchat default to hybrid latin1 utf-8, you can receive latin1 characters (which are invalid utf-8) and also utf-8, but when you send it's always latin1
10:16 < dx> Calinou: yes
10:16 < Calinou> cool
10:16 <+Zaneo> Both showed up for me, and i'm on a fresh install of hexchat
10:16 < dx> Zaneo: read what i said..
10:17 <+Zaneo> Ah sorry missed that
10:17 < Grum> o.O
10:17 < dx> it's a terrible setting since *you* are the only one who doesn't know your characters are fucked up
10:17 < dx> oh hey it's grum
10:17 <+md_5> quick
10:17 <+md_5> kidnap him
10:17 < dx> k
10:17  * md_5 is an artist https://github.com/ElasticPortalSuite/BungeeCord/issues/390
10:18 < dx> md_5: beautiful
10:18 < AnotherOne> lol
10:18 < Calinou> should be on DA ASAP
10:18  * Calinou posts it to /r/minecraft
10:18 < Grum> md_5: yeah we could do packetsize crap, but why would we bother spending time on that?
10:18 < Grum> it wont gain us anythin
10:18 <+AndrewPH> looked fine to me, dx
10:18 <+md_5> um
10:19 <+md_5> dx should I make a youtube reference
10:19 < dx> Grum: md_5 wants to refactor minecraft's protocol code FOR FREE! just because he loves you all
10:19 <+md_5> well
10:19 <+md_5> why is credit from youtubers and map makers more important than credit from us?
10:19 < Grum> whut?
10:19 < Calinou> oh hai
10:19 < Grum> i never add anything 'just for one person'
10:19 < SinZ> you constantly add features because sethbling asked
10:19 < Calinou> our local PilzAdam
10:19 <+md_5> not you
10:19 < Grum> not ever done that
10:19 < SinZ> you as in Mojang
10:20 <+md_5> ^^
10:20 < Calinou> SinZ: he did not
10:20 < dx> Grum: dinnerbro does
10:20 <+md_5> Dinner tweets all this shit all the time, stars on youtube videos
10:20 < Calinou> binnerdone then
10:20 < Grum> i guess mostly because they are oneline additions with controlled impact?
10:21 <+md_5> one line?
10:21 < Grum> unlike that 'prefix packet with length change' :p
10:21 <+md_5> you mean coloured armor
10:21 < dx> Grum: don't you think that server admins who would like to have networks of interconnected servers with thousands of players are rather important?
10:21 <+md_5> custom mob spawners
10:21 <+md_5> attribute systems
10:21 <+md_5> are all one line>
10:21 < Grum> the spawners were done because they were broken
10:21 <+md_5> also, I implemented said packet length system in ~10 lines
10:22 < SinZ> using NBT to change the block in minecarts and the position of the block in minecarts?
10:22 < Grum> dx: not in the slightest
10:22 < Grum> and you cant even do it without offline mode
10:22 < Grum> even less reason to support it
10:22 < dx> ...
10:22 <+md_5> Grum http://screencloud.net/v/ljtw
10:22 <+md_5> 11 lines
10:22 <+md_5> for packet length header
10:23 < SinZ> so because it helps legit people, it wont be done because pirates dont benefit?
10:23 < Grum> and lets now talk about impact md_5
10:23 < Grum> is it backwards compatible? no
10:23  * SpaceManiac yawns
10:23 <+md_5> is anything backwards compatible?
10:23 < Grum> why break it if its not going to be an improvement?
10:23 <+md_5> protocol version wouldnt exist if everything was compatible
10:23 < Grum> protocol version would ALWAYS exist
10:23 <+md_5> is 1.6 compatible with 1.5?
10:24 < Grum> if you dont have it, you are clearly not smart :P
10:24 <+md_5> answer: no
10:24 <+AndrewPH> wouldn't be needed though
10:24 < dx> Grum: have you heard about "BungeeCord"? it's what i was talking about. people actually use it for huge servers. clients connect to it and authenticate normally.
10:24 < Grum> AndrewPH: obviously it is needed O.o
10:24 <+md_5> therefore said change could go in the 1.6 update
10:24 <+md_5> so your argument of it being backwards compatible is irellevant
10:24 < Grum> dx: and then get offloaded to offline servers? fun
10:24 <+AndrewPH> Grum: because obviously not everything is backwards compatible :)
10:25 < Grum> md_5: no, its ok if its backwards incompat but it should at least improve SOMETHING
10:25 <+Zaneo> What do you mean by backwards compatible, works perfectly fine? or doesn't crash?
10:25 < Grum> which it doesn't
10:25 <+Zaneo> Just to clarify...
10:25 <+md_5> it does improve something, just ask this entire channel. You can make an MC client / server without coding 81 packets in which the slightest typo will cause helll
10:25 < Grum> i dont see the issue
10:25 <+md_5> does coloured armor improve something in my opinion
10:25 <+md_5> no it doesnt
10:25 < Grum> i mean, you all do it now not?
10:26 < dx> Grum: current protocol version is 66. that means 66 changes that aren't backwards compatible since this started...
10:26 < Grum> dx: yeah and with the current state of the protocol we'll have another 100 more
10:26 <+md_5> therefore I vote coloured armor be removed         <--- see the issue with that.
10:26 < SinZ> its 61...
10:26 < dx> SinZ: 13w19a
10:26 <+SpaceManiac> so you agree the current state of the protocol is awful? :P
10:26 < Grum> yes obviously it is
10:26 < Grum> you cant even call it a protocol
10:27 < Grum> protocols are designed
10:27 < Grum> this isnt
10:27 <+md_5> just because the mojang employees are Minecraft god and get to decide what 10 million people play, shouldnt mean that a features usefulness is decided by 1 guy
10:27 <+AndrewPH> Isn't json going to be used for something over the network
10:27 <+md_5> hey, I feel like horses
10:27 < Grum> however the priority of things are decided by 3 people md_5 ;)
10:27 <+md_5> lets give 10,000,000 people horses because we can!
10:27 <+AndrewPH> if something should at least improve something, why would json be considered? wasteful!
10:27 <+md_5> Grum are horses high on that priority?
10:27 < Grum> md_5: ask jens, he considered that a yes
10:28 < SinZ> Grum: how goes the new authentication?
10:28 < Grum> personally i think adding any features to the game right now is ..... not idael
10:28 < Grum> SinZ: webteam hasn't started on it
10:28 <+md_5> wouldnt making a server that can hold 300 people without eating up 3ghz of cpu be a priority?
10:28 < Grum> md_5: nope
10:28 < dx> ..
10:28 < Grum> well, a low one at best
10:28 < SinZ> wouldn't making the networking more efficient be on the table
10:28 <+md_5> oh right, but making a client that map makers and famous people can dick around with is
10:29 < Grum> yes, but also a low prio
10:29 <+md_5> hey guise, look what dinner added just for us this week!
10:29 < AnotherOne> yeah!
10:29 <+md_5> oculus rift
10:29 <+AndrewPH> imo you guys should release a big update, and then spend some time redesigning the protocol (or as you put it, designing it for the first time in its lifetime)
10:29 <+md_5> that is a massive priority
10:29 < Grum> md_5: i agree with you, i think its pointless to do
10:29 < AnotherOne> now i can login and stay online
10:29 < Grum> AndrewPH: the problem is, to redesign the protocol we need to have other shit fixed
10:29 < dx> Grum: *why* is it low priority, exactly? is it because we're the ones who ask for it?
10:29 < Grum> we havent yet, slowly working towards it
10:29 < AnotherOne> vector buffer is much faster than stream
10:29 <+md_5> I can see why tahg quit
10:29 < Grum> but then there is yet more shit that has to be fixed before that
10:30 <+ammar2> .query md_5 well yeah, famous people dicking around = more vids = more publicity = more sales
10:30 <+ammar2> oops
10:30 <+ammar2> :3
10:30 < dx> lol
10:30 < Grum> md_5: except that he didnt
10:30 <+md_5> Grum irreconcilable differences isnt quitting?
10:30 < dx> he didn't? that's new to me
10:30 < Grum> i have nothing more to add on that
10:30 < Grum> anyhow, the problem is in the bloody yaks
10:30 <+md_5> "Creative differences and frequent changes in developmental focus lead to a situation that could not be reconciled between the company and myself. "
10:30 < Grum> there is a ton of yaks that have to get handled before we can even consider redoing the protocol
10:31 <+md_5> lead to a situation that could not be reconciled between the company and myself.
10:31 <+md_5> ould not be reconciled between the company and myself.
10:31 < Grum> md_5: the first word is indicative
10:31 <+md_5> could not be reconciled
10:31 < Calinou> <md_5> wouldnt making a server that can hold 300 people without eating up 3ghz of cpu be a priority?
10:31 < Calinou> CPUs don't work like that
10:31 < dx> Grum: wrapping every packet write to not use the protocol directly but use a buffer that counts the packet length to be able to prepend it is not redoing the protocol
10:31 < Calinou> and 300 player server is horrible
10:31 < Calinou> <md_5> oculus rift
10:31 < Calinou> lol
10:31 < Grum> dx: yes but breaks 100% without giving ANY benefit/extra features/anything
10:32 <+md_5> so, either tahg left because he hated mojang. or mojang made tahg leave because they hated him.
10:32 < dx> Grum: every version number change breaks protocol parsing
10:32 <+md_5> s/hate/disliked direction and opinions
10:32 < Calinou> also, making minecraft server less hungry is simple: switch to 10 TPS
10:32 < Calinou> the end
10:32 < Calinou> it'll do most of the stuff for you
10:32 < Grum> dx: and they typically fix a bug orso
10:32 < Grum> yet the protocol is so horridly 'designed' that the onyl way to do it is by doing a backwards incompatible change
10:32 <+md_5> Calinou what I said holds true, the server uses approx 3 billion cpu cycles/sec one way or another
10:32 < dx> Grum: the benefit is extremely more lightweight protocol parsing, such as being able to handle thousands of messages per second without caring about every single one
10:32 <+md_5> every change is backwards incompatible
10:32 < Calinou> efficient or inefficient ones? we don't know
10:32 <+SpaceManiac> I can definitely understand the "bigger fish to fry" mentality
10:33 < Calinou> an A4-5400 won't handle 300 players
10:33 < Grum> dx: but that is absolutely nothing that 99.99% of the 10million players care for
10:33 < Calinou> never judge CPUs by speed or cores
10:33 < Calinou> and even less by cache
10:33 <+md_5> Calinou I'm not being scientiffic here
10:33 < Grum> SpaceManiac: there is so much broken stuff we have to start somewhere, starting at the place that has ungodly amounts of dependencies is *not* a good spot :)
10:34 <+SpaceManiac> Heh
10:34 <+ammar2> Grum: I dunno man, reddit seemed pretty hyped by the inter connected server system. All done thanks to third party software which would benefit from protocol changes
10:34 < Grum> s/broken/suboptimal/
10:34 < dx> md_5: how many bungee servers are there?
10:34 < Grum> ammar2: and now you just display another reason that doing it wont add much; you already have it working without it
10:34 <+md_5> dx best measured in players not server
10:34 < dx> md_5: sure then, how many players?
10:34 < Grum> surely it would be easier, but god that is *not* a good reason to break everything
10:35 <+ammar2> dx: http://mcstats.org/plugin/BungeeCord
10:35 <+md_5> 45,000 peak, when the MC peak is 280,000
10:35 <+md_5> approx
10:35 < Calinou> 100+ players is full of disorder already
10:35 < Calinou> I can't enjoy servers with more than 40 players
10:35 <+md_5> dx so call it 15% of Minecraft SMP players
10:35 <+ammar2> Calinou: different people like different things
10:35 < dx> md_5: cool.
10:35 < dx> Calinou: this isn't 100+ players in a single chunk lol, this is interconnected servers
10:35 <+AndrewPH> Calinou: bungee is cording several servers together, a corded network won't have every player playing in the same space
10:36 < Calinou> interconnected servers is again, useless for that kind of gamer
10:36 <+md_5> yeah
10:36 < Calinou> -r
10:36 < Calinou> not to mention it is energy inefficient
10:36 <+md_5> Calinou dont judge based on your opinions
10:36 < Calinou> feel free to do it
10:36 <+md_5> clearly the system works > made it to front page of MCforums, curse weekly wrapup, top post on r/minecraft
10:36 < Grum> md_5: so you get a sharded world?
10:36 < Calinou> but mojang will never implement that :P
10:36 < Grum> i have no idea what bungeecord actually does
10:36 < dx> Calinou: it doesn't interest you, but just see the numbers they mentioned above, other people like it
10:37 < Calinou> md_5: since when /r/minecraft is indicative of popularity, or front page of MCF
10:37 <+ammar2> since forever
10:37 <+AndrewPH> Calinou: Multiworld is pretty popular
10:37 < Calinou> "griefing is an illusion" was on front page for 3 weeks :trollface:
10:37 < Grum> dx: no that is a lie, most people dont even KNOW they are using it, let alone you claim they 'like' it
10:37 <+AndrewPH> bungeecord is the same idea, just with servers instead of local worlds
10:37 <+md_5> Calinou ........ 15% of players is also indicitative
10:37 <+md_5> yeah
10:37 < Not-001> [fCraft] fragmer * r1987 4 files : DefaultMapGenGui now auto-sizes itself properly.
10:37 <+md_5> bungee is the next level of multiworld
10:37 <+AndrewPH> Grum: think of Multiverse
10:37 < dx> Grum: how can someone not know they are playing in a server with 2000 online players?
10:37 <+AndrewPH> now replace local worlds with networked servers
10:37 < Grum> each dimension on its own server?
10:37 <+md_5> Grum basically yeah, but more game modes
10:37 < Calinou> dx: spam in chat? :trollface:
10:38 <+md_5> eg if you run a minigames network
10:38 <+AndrewPH> each world of course can have multiple worlds
10:38 <+md_5> hunger games one server
10:38 <+md_5> minez on the other server
10:38 <+AndrewPH> but it's very much the same idea
10:38 <+md_5> creative on another server
10:38 -!- shoghicp_ [~shoghicp@77.225.6.14] has joined #mcdevs
10:38 <+md_5> its a 'lobby'
10:38 < Grum> md_5: so there is absolutely no benefit beyond doing a: 'jump into a portal' or 'execute command' to connect to another server?
10:38 <+md_5> Grum there is, it ties the servers together
10:38 < Grum> is chat synced up from *all* servers into 1 general pool?
10:38 <+md_5> there are bungee plugins
10:38 < Calinou> jump-into-a-portal to go to a server would be useful
10:38 <+AndrewPH> Grum: it can be
10:38 < Calinou> one server per world, why not
10:39 <+md_5> that can control chat, communication between other plugins on other servers
10:39 <+md_5> tab lists, global commands
10:39 <+Zaneo> That's actually what my server has done recently
10:39 <+md_5> anyway lets get back on topic
10:39 <+Zaneo> Each world is a different server with different plugins, all sharing a global chat
10:39 <+md_5> where were we...
10:40 < dx> md_5: well, Grum not being aware of the existence of bungee is an important part of the topic
10:40 < Grum> so, what would be a compelling reason to do a change to the protocol if you already have it working? O.o
10:40 < Grum> dx: not at all, it changes nothing
10:40 < SinZ> the json patch dinnerbone is about to do will slow it all down
10:40 <+md_5> yeah
10:40 < Calinou> source
10:40 < SinZ> but the packet headers can speed it back up
10:40 < Grum> SinZ: no? O.o
10:40 < Calinou> also, what will that json patch be useful for?
10:40 <+ammar2> the packet header change can reduce the actual protocol interfacing library significantly
10:40 <+md_5> Grum uh yes? now i have to decode in excess of 100 json packets a second
10:41 <+AndrewPH> why JSON? I mean, at least it's not XML, but JSON?
10:41 <+md_5> and what ammar2 said, at the moment if I want to make a custom MC client, I have to build an 81 packet library
10:41 < Grum> yeah so ?
10:41 <+md_5> see now we just get back to this stalemate
10:41 <+AndrewPH> Grum: Wastes space, wastes processing power, wastes time.
10:41 < Grum> i mean, if you want to do anything with mc you will end up having to hardcode a ungodly amount of things
10:41 <+md_5> 3rd party devs: make it easy for as
10:41 <+AndrewPH> Grum: so don't make that list even longer, try to improve it.
10:41 < AnotherOne> i think mojang does not give a f*** about custom client makers
10:41 <+md_5> mojang: f*** you we only add shiny stuff that makes users love us. 
10:42 <+AndrewPH> because the worse you make it, the more crap you guys have to do later on
10:42 < Grum> the json change is needed
10:42 <+md_5> AnotherOne ^^ thats what above means
10:42 <+md_5> Grum read the comments on the gist
10:42 <+AndrewPH> Grum: "needed"
10:42 < Grum> or rather, we need something to communicate a chat-structure to the other side
10:42 <+md_5> especially dequis's
10:42 <+ammar2> the change may be needed but json isn't needed :P
10:42 < Grum> it doesnt have to be json
10:42 <+md_5> https://gist.github.com/Dinnerbone/5631634
10:42 < SinZ> Grum: then do NBT, not JSON
10:42 < Grum> there is no 'sane' alternative though
10:42 < Grum> NBT is FUCKED UP
10:42 <+AndrewPH> Grum: there we go
10:42 <+md_5> well
10:42 < Grum> seriously NBT is *BAD*
10:42 <+md_5> notch would have you believe nbt is a good idea for chat
10:42 < dx> json is worse
10:42 -!- shoghicp [~shoghicp@77.225.6.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
10:42 <+md_5> I mean nbt is what... a json/bson replacement
10:42 -!- shoghicp_ is now known as shoghicp
10:43 -!- Zaneo [~Zaneo@70.52.147.134] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
10:43 < Grum> you have never seen the NBT code ... its horrifying
10:43 < Grum> untested >.>
10:43 <+md_5> Grum yes we have, it was open sourced
10:43 < Grum> the one time i did test it, i found 5 bugs in 10 minutes :(
10:43 <+md_5> in the anvil converter
10:43 <+md_5> it had the mojang nbt classes
10:43 < Calinou> <Grum> NBT is FUCKED UP
10:43 < Calinou> +1
10:43 < Grum> yeah then you should know it is broken
10:43 < Calinou> who uses NBT other than minecraft? ._.
10:44 <+md_5> Calinou no one
10:44 <+md_5> minecraft invented nbt
10:44 < dx> the format itself is not bad, though
10:44 < Grum> it is
10:44 <+md_5> http://bsonspec.org/#/specification
10:44 < Grum> well, its not specifically horrible, the implementation is however
10:44 <+md_5> nbt is basically a shitty bson
10:45 <+md_5> at the core nbt is based around the same design principles as bson
10:45 < Grum> i've looked at bson before, looks like a sane alternative
10:45 < Grum> but meh, not really of much importance right now
10:46 < dx> uhm
10:46 <+AndrewPH> Grum: question: why does this happen http://i.imm.io/17lzZ.png
10:46 < Grum> no idea
10:46 < dx> you guys hate the § based chat packets, and hate NBT, so introduce json as dependency, but don't want to introduce bson?
10:46 < Grum> we dont introduce a json dependency at all
10:46 <+md_5> dx reason: they already had a json lib for realms
10:46 < Grum> we already have json as a dependency
10:46 <+md_5> > for realms
10:47 < Grum> we had it before that
10:47 < dx> oh, is it just realms?
10:47 < dx> Grum: where?
10:47 < Grum> we've had it for a long long LOOONG time
10:47 < Grum> argo has been bundle with our sources forevar
10:47 <+md_5> argo can barely be classed as a json
10:47 < Grum> (util 1.6 ;D)
10:47 < Grum> argo = json
10:47 <+md_5> its a horrible library
10:47 < Grum> yes
10:47 < Grum> we'll be using gson
10:47 <+AndrewPH> haha, argo, clever. because jason and the argonauts.
10:47 < Grum> we are using both right now even
10:47 <+AndrewPH> ha.
10:48 < dx> ha
10:48 <+AndrewPH> I feel silly but that made me giggle.
10:48 <+md_5> AndrewPH hehe
10:48  * md_5 quickly checks what they used argo for
10:48 <+AndrewPH> I should probably get some sleep
10:49 <+md_5> uh
10:49 < dx> Grum: so you had bundled argo without using it, now you decide to introduce a new json dependency because argo sucks, but don't want to introduce a bson dependency?
10:49 <+md_5> argo is only used for realms as far as I can tell
10:49 <+md_5> dx and with the new launcher / recently they have added:a
10:49 <+md_5> apache commons
10:49 <+md_5> guava
10:49 <+md_5> asm
10:49 <+md_5> scala
10:49 <+md_5> wat.... why is asm and scala there
10:49 <+ammar2> asm? scala? wut
10:49 < dx> ..scala? lol?
10:49 <+md_5> something
10:50 <+md_5> what
10:50 <+md_5> forge is polluting my lib folder
10:50 < dx> lol derp
10:50 <+md_5> actual lib folder is:
10:50 <+md_5> argo
10:50 <+md_5> guava
10:50 <+md_5> jorbis (paulscode)
10:50 <+md_5> apache commons
10:50 <+md_5> jinput
10:50 <+md_5> joptsimple
10:51 <+md_5> bouncycastle
10:51 <+md_5> lwjgl
10:51 <+md_5> ----
10:51 < SinZ> launcher is gson and apache commons
10:51 <+md_5> jopt simple was probably added in a blink
10:51 < Grum> oh well; afk -> groceries :P
10:51 <+md_5> dx they dont have a real reason not to add bson
10:52 < dx> when sircmpwn complained about dependencies, dinnerbro said "Ok. Dependencies are bad? We already had json handling"
10:52 <+md_5> the fact is there are 2 groups of people crying for the attention of mojang
10:52 < dx> so dependencies aren't a problem
10:52 <+md_5> and we are always the group that gets ignored because our ideas are stupid
10:52 <+md_5> yet horses hoppers droppers coloured armor mob spawners comparators are not stupid
10:52 <+SpaceManiac> have fun getting food
10:53 < dx> we're just not a priority
10:53 <+ammar2> md_5: well yeah, you need updates to sell the game
10:53 <+md_5> ammar2 you could do all our updates in the time it takes to make oculus rift work
10:53 < SinZ> you could do all our updates before 1.6 is released
10:54 <+md_5> SinZ you could do them before the next snapshot (excluding the udp idea we threw around)
10:54 < SinZ> I didn't like the udp idea
10:54 < SinZ> WAY too much work for everyone
10:54 <+ammar2> yeah, dual stack is iffy
10:55 < dx> i'd love to have udp, but considering the amount of 'care' we receive, forget it
10:55 < SinZ> all our protocol improvements are required basically to make udp work right anyway
10:56 < dx> if adding a packet size header is hard, udp is impossible
10:56 <+md_5> the fact is there are commited people who want to "so don't make that list even longer, try to improve it." but it wont happen
10:56 -!- Cay [~OlofLarss@s83-177-171-150.cust.tele2.se] has joined #mcdevs
10:57 < dx> should i post a summary of this conversation to the gist thread, btw?
10:57 <+md_5> dx I loved your last comment, so yes, make it snazzy
10:58 <+ammar2> dx: if by gist thread you mean you guys complaining and dinnerbro saying nothing, sure :D
10:58 < dx> let's hope github doesn't decide to clear my text field again
10:58 <+md_5> dx write in wordpad or something and copy over
10:58 < dx> md_5: yeah i do that already
10:58 < dx> ammar2: he replied to a sircmpwn comment, at least
10:59 < AnotherOne> lol, dx
10:59 < AnotherOne> i told you
10:59 <+ammar2> his comment wasn't nearly detailed enough to provoke a proper response
11:00 < dx> AnotherOne: you also said i was butthurt and nobody cared, go away
11:01 < AnotherOne> i meant nobody at mojang:)
11:03 < dx> ...well now we know that grum doesn't care, but that doesn't mean we're going to give up
11:03 <+ammar2> we are
11:03 <+ammar2> we'll have to live with it just like we've been all these years
11:03 < dx> at the very least i want something that isn't json for the chat packets
11:04 <+md_5> <dx> ...well now we know that grum doesn't care, but that doesn't mean we're going to give up
11:04 <+md_5> +1 thats why this channel exists
11:10 -!- Yoshi2 [~chatzilla@xdsl-87-78-41-206.netcologne.de] has joined #mcdevs
11:11 < AnotherOne> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtxL6jDiaUQ this + code meditation + tea = nice day
11:29 < AnotherOne> do you remember episode from matrix when Neo was shown "Woman in red" in code?
11:30 < AnotherOne> feeling the same while reading packet dumps
11:31 < Flemmard> it's more: http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/36998474.jpg
11:33 -!- SuinDraw [~NiaTeppel@WiseOS/Founder/NiaTeppelin] has joined #mcdevs
11:33 < AnotherOne> true
11:35 < AnotherOne> what fo you guys think abut 0x10x?
11:35 < AnotherOne> 10c*
11:38 -!- Calinou [~Calinou@unaffiliated/calinou] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:38 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
11:48 <+SpaceManiac> seems neat from what I heard about it ages ago
11:51 < AnotherOne> i like its idea
11:51 < AnotherOne> Notch is genius of ideas
11:51  * eddyb runs away
11:52 < AnotherOne> not of implementation though:(
11:53 < Yoshi2> I heard that he put 0x10c on ice
11:54 < SinZ> from writers block or something like that
11:59 < dx> i just discovered :match and :highlight in vim
11:59 < dx> free custom syntax highlighting
11:59 < AnotherOne> masochist
12:00 < dx> why
12:00 < AnotherOne> because vim
12:00 < dx> sometimes you have to read stuff that isn't in a defined format
12:00 < dx> oh derp
12:00 < AnotherOne> how to exit it?:)
12:00 < Flemmard> :q!
12:00 < AnotherOne> damnit
12:00 < dx> let's not talk about this
12:01 < AnotherOne> i still remember my first launch of vim
12:01 < Flemmard> never try to exit vim as you want to exit emacs .. locks your term (if you dont know what it really does) XD
12:01 < AnotherOne> it ended with reboot
12:02 < dx> vim is an editor for people who want to be efficient, not for people who want to click buttons and use wizard interfaces
12:02 < AnotherOne> notepad++
12:03 < Flemmard> emacs is great (if you use it properly)
12:03 < Flemmard> as a lot of term editors
12:03 < Flemmard> keyboard shortcuts are a lot more efficient than messing with a mouse and a crappy UI :>
12:03 < dx> yeah i'm sure emacs is good too, but i just chose a different path
12:03 < Flemmard> yeah
12:03 < Flemmard> we 'had' to learn it at school
12:03 < Flemmard> so ..