16:51 < dx> did you give bonus points to yourself?
16:51 < dx> that's cheating
16:51 < jast> sure. I do that all the time. it's fun.
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17:02 < dx> (bonus points for being dx)
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17:09 < AnotherOne> i am trying to connect to bukkit server and it is sending me 2 0xFD's in a row. does it mean server requires encryption?
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17:09 <+sadimusi> two of them is a bit odd
17:10 <+sadimusi> but most servers do require encryption
17:10 < AnotherOne> i think second is coming after my 0xCD
17:11 <+sadimusi> maybe it just send more 0xFDs until you respond with a correct 0xFC
17:12 <+sadimusi> you could use a proxy and disable encryption on the client side
17:13 < AnotherOne> proxies are outdated, aren't they?
17:13 <+sadimusi> I really have to rename my fork of mc3p :/
17:13 <+sadimusi> https://github.com/sadimusi/mc3p/
17:15 <+sadimusi> there is currently no easy way to disable encryption on the client side, but I could build one if you want me to
17:16 < AnotherOne> http://www.wiki.vg/Utility_List
17:16 < AnotherOne> put it here mb
17:16 < AnotherOne> it was not encryption:)
17:16 <+sadimusi> it is there, the info is just a bit outdated
17:17 < AnotherOne> yes
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17:18 < Not-003> [wiki] Edit by Sadimusi to Utility List -> http://tinyurl.com/oebf8ea
17:18 < AnotherOne> it is something about 0xD1 Teams
17:19 < AnotherOne> server sends two of them
17:19 <+sadimusi> so you are saying there are servers which don't require encryption?
17:19 < AnotherOne> pirated servers
17:19 < AnotherOne> don't
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17:20 <+sadimusi> that doesn't make any sense, but I guess it's good for your testing purposes
17:21 < AnotherOne> offline mode server don't need encryption:)
17:21 < AnotherOne> servers*
17:21 < AnotherOne> and yes, it is good:)
17:22 < AnotherOne> but it is not good bukkit is weird
17:22 <+sadimusi> why are you testing with bukkit anyway?
17:22 < AnotherOne> i took random pirated server from my list
17:23 < AnotherOne> and trying to connect to it
17:23 < AnotherOne> local server is ok now
17:23 < AnotherOne> no problems
17:24 <+sadimusi> you don't have any teams set on it I assume
17:24 <+sadimusi> did you notice that you only have to read certain fields of the 0x1D packet depending on the mode?
17:25 < AnotherOne> sure
17:27 < AnotherOne> why does bukkit send that?
17:28 <+sadimusi> create a team on your local server and you'll get it there as well
17:28 <+sadimusi> /scoreboard teams add teset
17:28 <+sadimusi> -e
17:31 < AnotherOne> let's see
17:31 < AnotherOne> yep
17:32 < AnotherOne> looks like problem is in message handler
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17:38 < AnotherOne> am i first here who makes own client?
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17:38 <+ammar2> nope
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17:44 < AnotherOne> show me yours if you make it too:)
17:46 < AnotherOne> d1 fixed, i've forgot to read team name
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17:59 < AnotherOne> Display Scoreboard (0xD0)
17:59 < AnotherOne> why is this sent? what is a scorebord in current version?
17:59 < AnotherOne> scoreboard*
18:01 < AnotherOne> oh i got it
18:01 < AnotherOne> hp bar
18:01 < AnotherOne> omg
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18:22 < Not-003> [netherrack] thinkofdeath pushed 6 commits to master [+1/-0/±8] http://git.io/AAc9pQ
18:22 < Not-003> [netherrack] thinkofdeath 745a973 - Comments and missing lock
18:22 < Not-003> [netherrack] thinkofdeath 7f3fa27 - Added a safestop command
18:22 < Not-003> [netherrack] thinkofdeath 49b6420 - Made nbt.Reader private
18:22 < Not-003> [netherrack] thinkofdeath a08b41f - Removed unneeded locks
18:22 < Not-003> [netherrack] thinkofdeath 3b89bed - Minor changes
18:22 < Not-003> [netherrack] thinkofdeath d3ec5d7 - Simplified chunk compressing
18:22 < AnotherOne> omg
18:23 < AnotherOne> that server gives me all players' names
18:23 < AnotherOne> exploitable #2
18:23 < Thinkofdeath> ?
18:23 < AnotherOne> log and brute all of them:)
18:23 <+pdelvo> I have a better idea then block everything with a robots file. I added a canonial link into the side header which tells search engines where the original lives
18:23 < AnotherOne> i think most of then have 123
18:24 < Yoshi2> are these players the ones who are currently playing on the server?
18:24 < AnotherOne> them*
18:24 < AnotherOne> all who have ever registered
18:24 < Thinkofdeath> Most servers send all players names for the tab-list
18:25 < Yoshi2> all players who have ever played/registered on the server? That is rather unusual
18:25 < Thinkofdeath> Only online ones
18:26 < AnotherOne> this one sends http://www.wiki.vg/Protocol#Update_Score_.280xCF.29 for all registered players
18:26 < AnotherOne> healthbars
18:26 < Yoshi2> the server is only supposed to be sending the players who are online to the client
18:26 < Thinkofdeath> Ah that would be the bukkit plugin's fault I guess
18:27 < Thinkofdeath> (If its bukkit)
18:27 < AnotherOne> yes
18:27 < AnotherOne> it is bukkit
18:29 < shoghicp> Who is the developer of Burger? sadimusi?
18:29 < Thinkofdeath> AnotherOne: Its not really a big issue anyway, just a waste of bandwidth
18:30 < Thinkofdeath> shoghicp: I think so
18:30 < shoghicp> I'm thinking about integrating MCPE protocol support, or at least, output the data in a format compatible with Burguer
18:30 < shoghicp> Like https://gist.github.com/shoghicp/5601589
18:30 < shoghicp> I've my own tool to compare releases
18:31 < shoghicp> but if it is added to http://b.wiki.vg/ (or similer) it would be awesome
18:31 < dx> neat
18:31 < Thinkofdeath> I think the site just uses the output of https://github.com/mcdevs/Burger which uses json
18:32 < shoghicp> Then, I should follow Burger's output, and it should be compatible, right?
18:33 < Thinkofdeath> You would have to ask sadimusi, but I would assume so
18:33 < AnotherOne> hm
18:33 < AnotherOne> i'm getting end of stream right after 0x0D
18:34 < AnotherOne> am i reading too slow or what?
18:34 < dx> shoghicp: this is the repo of b.wiki.vg, vitrine/toppings has the parser of each part of it, looks really simple to me https://github.com/sadimusi/BurgerVitrine
18:34 < shoghicp> thanks
18:37 <+pdelvo> My first try to build some kind of compare view: http://wiki.pdelvo.de/Protocol@master...pre :D
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18:41 < dx> pdelvo: whoa
18:41 < Thinkofdeath> pdelvo: Looks nice but maybe it should show more of the page around the changes because its not very clear what change is for what packet
18:41 < dx> pdelvo: i have no idea how to read this
18:41 <+pdelvo> me too. im working on it :D
18:41 * dx would like to mention that every existing wiki software has diff support already
18:42 < dx> although markdown makes diffs much nicer
18:42 < dx> mediawiki's table markup are awful
18:42 < dx> err.. *is awful
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18:52 < AnotherOne> i are dunecat
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19:05 <+pdelvo> I think thats a little bit better, but ot perfekt yet: http://wiki.pdelvo.de/Protocol@master...pre :D
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19:09 < Thinkofdeath> pdelvo: Its a bit wide :)
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19:22 < dx> pdelvo: pre {white-space: pre-wrap;}
19:22 < dx> oh wait..
19:23 < dx> you aren't using pre, you are explicitly telling it to avoid wrap
19:23 <+pdelvo> hm I dont want to wrap because of the line numbers
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19:23 <+pdelvo> but Im not sure about it :/
19:25 <+pdelvo> now with more context: http://wiki.pdelvo.de/Protocol@master...pre
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19:30 < dx> pdelvo: there are two double quote characters to close the style attribute of the td
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19:30 < dx>
19:31 <+pdelvo> oh thanks
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20:05 < AnotherOne> hey pdevlo
20:05 <+pdelvo> hi
20:05 < AnotherOne> it looks nice now
20:06 < AnotherOne> hmm... why change health to float?
20:06 <+pdelvo> thanks. If you got improvements to the diff view. it is templated: https://github.com/pdelvo/McDevsWiki/tree/template/diff Send me a pull request:D
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20:11 < AnotherOne> http://i48.fastpic.ru/big/2013/0522/ae/d3ff29275b3687eae7405283108d43ae.png
20:12 < AnotherOne> word wrap?
20:12 <+pdelvo> then the line numbers would mess up
20:13 < AnotherOne> horizontal scroller?:)
20:13 <+pdelvo> I can show you how that looks like
20:13 <+pdelvo> there is a scroller
20:13 <+pdelvo> should be updatet in max. 1min
20:18 < AnotherOne> no there isn't
20:18 < AnotherOne> that is mt scroller
20:18 < AnotherOne> my
20:18 <+pdelvo> hm there should be one
20:19 <+pdelvo> http://wiki.pdelvo.de/Protocol@master...pre
20:19 <+pdelvo> wrapping
20:19 < AnotherOne> i see, nice
20:20 <+pdelvo> it does not work everywhere oO
20:20 < AnotherOne> if you make line number at first line instead of middle it would be better
20:24 <+pdelvo> that is strange. why does the wrapping work "sometimes"
20:26 < AnotherOne> because web
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20:52 < AnotherOne> what is + before nick?
20:52 <+pdelvo> http://wiki.pdelvo.de/Protocol@master~5...pre now with working wrapping.
20:53 <+pdelvo> @: fck you html. Doest work either. Now I got from "sometimes" to "most of the time"
20:54 < shoghicp> pdelvo: I should use that for the MCPE protocol documentation :D
20:56 <+pdelvo> I should print some html, throw it into a fire and sing a song to get the html god on my side. maybe this will fix it
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20:59 <+ammar2> AnotherOne: voice
21:00 < AnotherOne> voice?
21:01 < AnotherOne> pdelvo: version without those cells was better
21:01 < AnotherOne> make them transparent or something
21:02 < shoghicp> A question about Minecraft Pi
21:03 <+pdelvo> Got it! http://wiki.pdelvo.de/Protocol@master~5...pre
21:03 < shoghicp> Is 0,0,0 the spawn point at sea level?
21:04 < shoghicp> "(0,0,0) is the spawn point sea
21:04 < shoghicp> level. (X,Z) is the ground plane and Y is towards the sky."
21:04 < shoghicp> Is that right?
21:06 < AnotherOne> i must teach my code generator read wiki page and generate packets
21:11 < Yoshi2> I thought about doing that for my packet generator, but the entries are not standerized enough for that to be feasible
21:15 < Yoshi2> anything more complicated than "a = readString" or "b = readByte" requires its own rules
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21:35 < AnotherOne> fock own rules:) now my generator just does routine work for me, some packets must be customized, and i think it is ok
21:35 < AnotherOne> byte array is evil
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21:36 < AnotherOne> why no make it like string?
21:36 < AnotherOne> because mojang?
21:37 < shoghicp> a string is a byte array
21:37 < Yoshi2> a byte array is not necessarily a string
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21:38 < AnotherOne> i mean lenght
21:38 < AnotherOne> th*
21:39 < AnotherOne> they could do it right before array
21:39 < Yoshi2> hm, yeah, they could
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21:40 < AnotherOne> but they didn't
21:40 < AnotherOne> this is one of the things i have to customize after my generator
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21:53 < TkTech> Just not Freenode without the daily netsplit.
21:53 <+sadimusi> pdelvo: I don't think the templates should be in the same repo as the content...
21:54 <+pdelvo> they are on an orphan branch
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22:22 < AnotherOne> i saw dinnerbone here
22:22 < AnotherOne> is he real?
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22:42 <+pdelvo> jeah he is
22:42 <+pdelvo> and before you ask. Grum is real too
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22:58 < TkTech> AnotherOne: And of course, you're not going to needlessly bug them/ping them because you've read the channel rules and know that's a ban.
23:02 < AnotherOne> :D
--- Day changed jeu. mai 23 2013
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01:18 <+md_5> Wait what
01:18 <+md_5> Real
01:27 <+SpaceManiac> Everything is fake
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01:43 < Not-003> [fCraft] fragmer * r1974 2 files : Fixed typo in the root readme (thanks Zaneo)
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02:16 < Not-003> [wiki] Edit by Nickelpro to Pre-release protocol -> http://tinyurl.com/oftkadh
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06:30 <+md_5> https://gist.github.com/Dinnerbone/5631634
06:30 <+md_5> What the
06:31 <+md_5> ........
06:31 <+md_5> .........
06:31 <+md_5> ........
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07:57 < dx> md_5: what
07:57 < dx> md_5: these... are contents for the new chat packet?
07:58 < dx> i seriously hope i'm wrong
07:59 < dx> we have a protocol where it's too 'expensive' to add a two byte header to indicate the packet length but they don't mind adding this
08:01 < dx> oh i just noticed the color/formatting part of it
08:07 <+AndrewPH> I still don't understand the point of encrypting /everything/
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08:07 < Grum> pdelvo: no way we're real! we're on the internats
08:08 < dx> AndrewPH: mitm?
08:08 < Grum> dx: its not too expensive, its impossible to know the size beforehand and its a HUGE mess in the first place
08:08 < Grum> also not remotely a priority
08:08 < dx> Grum: i agree that the protocol is a huge mess
08:08 <+AndrewPH> dx: I suppose so, but encrypting just chat and sensitive things (like the login procedure) would make mitm attacks pointless enough.
08:09 < ShaRose> no they wouldn't
08:09 < Grum> it indeed wouldnt
08:09 <+AndrewPH> enough, not completely pointless
08:09 < ShaRose> it's completely pointless to only encrypt 'some' packets
08:09 < Grum> so its like a: 'little bit of murder' ?
08:09 <+AndrewPH> there would still be a point, but you couldn't steal an account unless I'm missing something.
08:09 < dx> a few crows?
08:09 < Grum> you cant ever steal someones account
08:10 < Grum> also->traveling to work -- brb :P
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08:10 <+AndrewPH> Grum: er, i meant impersonate by sending chat
08:10 <+AndrewPH> and potentially taking over a server
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08:10 < ShaRose> AndrewPH again, what is the point of only encrypting some packets and not others
08:11 <+AndrewPH> ShaRose: what is the point of encrypting movement?
08:11 < ShaRose> it's easier to just encrypt everything
08:12 <+AndrewPH> yeah
08:12 <+AndrewPH> this is true
08:12 -!- Zachoz|Away is now known as Zachoz
08:12 < ShaRose> so why should mojang make the protocol more susceptible to weaknesses and increase code complexity again
08:13 < dx> if you want it to be easier to debug, just turn it off completely
08:13 <+AndrewPH> it just seems kinda inefficient to encrypt things that are sent many times per second
08:14 <+AndrewPH> I'm a bit surprised to see that the general opinion towards encrypting everything has changed since it was added.
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08:48 < Not-003> [fCraft] fragmer * r1975 2 files : Players can now /clear their chat even while /deaf
08:49 < Grum> dx: i dont see why it should be easy to debug
08:50 < Grum> i mean, all these arguments are purely from a point of: 'i want to interface with mc network code and boehoe i cannot read javacode'
08:50 < Grum> i mean, the game does it, why cant you?
08:50 < Not-003> [fCraft] fragmer * r1976 4 files : Moved GenerateFlatgrass, GenerateEmpty, and GenerateOcean functionality out of RealisticMapGen into FlatMapGen.
08:50 < Grum> Also, I still agree the networkcode is atrocious and horrible and inefficient
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08:56 < dx> Grum: eh, some people would like to sniff packets instead of having to use proxies to help with the development of their clients / servers, but meh
08:57 < Grum> they can?
08:57 < Grum> just enjoy decoding them
08:57 < dx> i said would like
08:57 < dx> i'm not sure if anyone bothered :D
08:57 < dx> Grum: but that's why i said just turn off encryption
08:58 < Grum> why would we ever add that option?
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08:58 < Grum> that will only get people to turn it off and suddenly there is MITM again
08:58 < dx> Grum: er.. isn't that what happens with offline mode?
08:58 < dx> (but i might be misinformed)
08:59 < Grum> no idea tbh, could be, but i dont really care for offline mode
08:59 <+AndrewPH> was mitm a gigantic issue?
08:59 <+AndrewPH> as in, was it happening a lot
08:59 <+AndrewPH> (genuine curiosity)
08:59 < dx> there's no way to know that lol
08:59 <+AndrewPH> well, people can report it to other people
09:00 <+AndrewPH> word of mouth
09:00 < Grum> AndrewPH: yes
09:00 < Grum> there were super easy tools out there which would abuse it
09:00 < Grum> just lure an admin of a server to your 'mc server' and presto, you had control over the server he was admin on
09:00 < dx> oh right, those
09:00 <+AndrewPH> ah
09:00 <+AndrewPH> yeah i could see that being a big issue.
09:01 < Grum> for me there was another one
09:01 < Grum> people pretending to be me doing promises somewhere
09:01 < Grum> and i got plenty of dubious 'please join this server, something is wrong' offers
09:01 <+AndrewPH> Q: is udp transmission of movement and any other somewhat trivial packets that are sent back and forth a lot on the roadmap?
09:02 < ShaRose> welcome to like
09:02 < ShaRose> 6 months ago
09:02 < dx> Grum: huh? that's either offline mode or that one massive mojang account vulnerability
09:02 < ShaRose> Grum can attest that I had pestered the shit out of him to move the protocol to udp a long time ago
09:02 < ShaRose> tl;dr no
09:03 < dx> just write a proxy and have your players use that instead
09:03 < ShaRose> anyways
09:03 < ShaRose> I just spent 3 hours trying to fix stuff
09:03 < ShaRose> it's 4:33 am now
09:03 < ShaRose> I'm off to bed
09:03 <+AndrewPH> ShaRose: the entire protocol or just small-but-happens-tons packets?
09:03 < dx> 4:33 am? what?!
09:03 < ShaRose> newfoundland daylight time
09:03 < dx> it's 4:03 am here
09:03 < ShaRose> -3:30
09:03 <+AndrewPH> also it's only undernoon here
09:04 < dx> ShaRose: oh that makes sense
09:04 <+AndrewPH> slept from like 3:30 to 10
09:04 < dx> timezones with :30 are rare
09:04 <+AndrewPH> so i'm going to read and play games until 3ish
09:04 < dx> i was thinking my ntpd died
09:04 < ShaRose> AndrewPH and I said the whole thing, mixing udp and tcp CAN have issues unless you specifically account for them
09:05 <+AndrewPH> yeah, movement alone probably wouldn't be /too/ difficult to implement
09:05 <+AndrewPH> I can understand not wanting to do it, though
09:05 < dx> but adding udp is creating issues for the sake of improving latency
09:08 < dx> personally i don't care, lag is a gameplay element :D
09:09 < dx> if you guys really believe it could be useful
09:09 < dx> 04:02 < dx> just write a proxy and have your players use that instead
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09:10 < Grum> AndrewPH: you cannot have both UDP and TCP at the same time
09:10 < Grum> at least not on the same point
09:10 < Grum> splitting that up makes a hell for serverowners/firewalls/whatever
09:10 < Grum> erm at the same port
09:11 < dx> Grum: *cough* query *cough*
09:11 <+AndrewPH> Grum: well, "hell", until it's realized that you just have to forward 2 ports instead of 1. I'd say that, relative to adding it in, server owners don't have to do much
09:11 < dx> minecraft listens TCP 25565, query listens UDP 25565 by default
09:11 < Grum> yeah, that is considered hell for 10million people
09:11 < Grum> without any benefit
09:12 < Grum> dx: yeah, guess who added that
09:12 < Grum> *NOT ME*
09:12 < dx> lol
09:12 < jast> there is no trouble at all having services with the same port number on both TCP and UDP
09:12 <+AndrewPH> source engine pretty much requires you to forward, what was it, 3 or 4 ports for full server workage
09:12 < Grum> jast: except that there is
09:12 < jast> every standards-compliant DNS server does it
09:12 < Grum> because the tcp retry mechanism will let udp packets go 'poofsies'
09:12 < Grum> yeah
09:12 < Grum> and the whole point about udp is that you 'do not give a fuck'
09:12 < Grum> but you kinda do for mc data
09:13 < dx> i.. don't understand this
09:13 < dx> they are processed separately
09:13 < jast> design proper protocol Problem Solved (tm)
09:13 <+AndrewPH> movement is sent often enough that if one or two packets go "poof" it doesn't really matter.
09:13 < Grum> especially with the given state of the protocol
09:13 < Grum> jast: yeah lol i agree
09:13 < Grum> AndrewPH: you'd be surprised
09:13 <+AndrewPH> Grum: I guess I would be
09:13 < dx> they are different parts of the operating system network stack
09:13 < dx> ¯\(°_o)/¯
09:13 <+AndrewPH> I haven't done any work with the current version of minecraft, besides hosting
09:14 < Grum> AndrewPH: we once upon a time halfed the frequency of a certain packet that was getting spammed
09:14 < Grum> result? people dying all over the place
09:14 < jast> dying is fun
09:14 < dx> ^
09:14 < Grum> we were like .. riiiiiiight ... that we wont touch again >.>
09:14 < dx> each new version of minecraft is more difficult, so that seems like a fitting change
09:14 < dx> (lol)
09:14 < jast> oh, wait, that's different from dyeing, isn't it
09:15 < dx> i think the verb for using dyes is dying too
09:15 <+AndrewPH> Grum: what about a server-set rate that the client would obey, so that certain servers can have a lower rate, while servers that need it can have a higher rate?
09:15 <+AndrewPH> but i complicate things
09:15 < jast> not according to my dictionary
09:15 < dx> nevermind then
09:16 < Grum> AndrewPH: all things that with the current state of the code are ... next to impossible to implement
09:16 <+AndrewPH> I should probably finish packing my wii and reading
09:16 <+AndrewPH> Grum: of course :(
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09:16 * dx pats Grum
09:16 < dx> i'm sorry you have to deal with this
09:16 <+AndrewPH> on a side note, I was playing the xbox360 version. those guys did a great job optimizing it to run on das xbox.
09:17 < dx> xbox360 mc cheats
09:17 < dx> we don't compare it with the pc one
09:17 < Grum> i mean, cut away enough contraints and you can do anything
09:17 <+AndrewPH> dx: I wasn't comparing it to the pc one
09:17 < Grum> 512x512map? done!
09:17 <+AndrewPH> I was saying it ran great :D
09:17 < Grum> oh now we can compress stuff better? done
09:18 < dx> oh now we can use pbunny chunk storage? done
09:18 < jast> thanks to the power of c+++
09:18 <+AndrewPH> c++++
09:18 <+AndrewPH> *
09:19 < dx> oh you guys banned him already
09:19 < dx> :(
09:19 < dx> now this channel is going to make too much sense
09:19 < Grum> lol
09:19 < Grum> you should macro that more
09:22 < dx> we should do something special so we don't forget him after this tragic death
09:22 < dx> like modifying bukkit's worldborder to generate chunks up to 5000x5000 and keep every single one loaded in memory
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09:24 < dx> or maybe a command aliasing tool that uses syntax like C macros, #define torch(x, y) /give 50 y
09:26 < dx> i'm not sure why i used (x, y)
09:26 < Grum> seems right
09:27 < Grum> should be y*2 though
09:27 < Grum> and then not put ()'s around the y
09:27 < Grum> because 'that is not a mistake waiting to happen'
09:28 < dx> ugh don't remind me of that stuff
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09:35 < Grum> dx: you are just jealous because pbunny was ahead of the pack
09:35 < dx> lol
09:35 < luntik13> ++
09:36 < luntik13> where is he btw?
09:36 < dx> luntik13: banned :(
09:36 < luntik13> omg
09:36 < luntik13> why?
09:36 < dx> gee i wonder
09:36 < dx> anyway
09:37 < dx> Grum: could you explain a bit what kind of issues you found when listening to the same port number in both tcp and udp? i can't find anything about it in google
09:37 < Grum> its not about listening
09:37 < Grum> it works fine
09:37 < Grum> but due to the nature of how tcp works you cannot reliably communicate UDP on the same port
09:37 < Grum> which sortof is the whole idea about UDP
09:38 < Grum> but it kinda defeats the purpose if you are moving part of the protocol over from TCP to UDP
09:38 < dx> i don't see how they can interfere with each other
09:41 < Grum> you just get more packetloss on udp because its still using the same underlying protocol
09:42 < dx> oh, that's what you meant?
09:42 < Grum> it 'will work' it will just make the UDP worse
09:42 < dx> i think nobody would even suggest using a protocol designed for tcp with udp and expect an improvement
09:42 < Grum> people do :/
09:43 < dx> geez.
09:43 < dx> i was expecting you to say that from the massive minecraft userbase, some admins found issues with conflicts between the mc protocol in tcp 25565 and the query protocol in udp 25565 too
09:44 < dx> ...you did imply that was a bad idea, though
09:44 < Grum> i mean, for minecraft we have the need to have reliable communications for parts of our data
09:44 < Grum> tcp is quite suitable for that
09:44 < Grum> if you want to build that in UDP you are going to have to mimic tcp
09:44 < dx> yes, pretty much
09:44 < Grum> 1) lots of work, 2) lots of pain, 3) lots of trial and error before getting it right
09:44 < Grum> so then people suggested: oh then why not just use udp for the 'not so important things'
09:45 < dx> it's standard practice for game protocol development to reimplement *parts* of UDP to get better handling of latency
09:45 < dx> i know it's a pain in the ass
09:45 < dx> but if you get it right, it's worth it
09:45 < dx> err *parts of TCP
09:46 < Grum> yeah but the investment to get it is just not worth it
09:46 < dx> which is why i was telling the people who suggested that to make a proxy that makes the client connect to localhost:25565 tcp, the proxy connects to the other proxy on the server side using UDP, and the server side proxy would connect to localhost:25565 TCP
09:46 < jast> for game protocols you typically don't need many of the TCP features
09:46 < Grum> i mean, the only benefit we get is possibly halving the latency
09:47 < dx> it's not just latency
09:47 < Grum> its exclusively latency?
09:47 < Grum> maybe a tiny little bit of traffic
09:47 < dx> packet loss handling can be improved a lot
09:47 < dx> lose a single packet in tcp, get a shitton of crap you don't care about retransmitted
09:48 < dx> you'll need retransmission of stuff, but not everything has the same priority, and not everything needs to be in order
09:48 < Grum> unless you care for the packet
09:48 < jast> more relevantly, your application doesn't see the later packets until the lost packet has been received
09:48 < Grum> which in 95% of the traffic in MC you kinda do ;)
09:48 < dx> you care about packets differently
09:49 < jast> so a single packet getting lost delays everything else, too
09:49 < Grum> anyways, feel free to make an implementation i can use
09:49 < dx> i can wait for a chunk to load, i'd rather see the mob walking towards me
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09:49 < jast> with a suitable UDP-based protocol that's not necessary
09:49 < jast> of course, an all new protocol means extensive code changes... :)
09:49 < dx> yep
09:50 < dx> and i don't think mojang can legally accept patches from decompiled MCP code :D
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09:50 < Grum> you can make me a clean extremely well tested library i can use
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09:50 < Grum> and give a reference implementation in decompiled MCP code
09:50 < dx> sounds good
09:50 < jast> I'll pass :}
09:51 < Grum> i'd love to do it but ... i have other yaks to shave
09:51 < dx> i'd rather write a proxy in something that isn't java, at least for a first PoC
09:52 < luntik13> java sucks
09:52 < Grum> obviously it sucks, every language sucks
09:52 < luntik13> mojang is so wrong
09:53 < dx> lol
09:53 < Grum> we are! but we're still right enough that >25 million buy our stuffs ;)
09:53 * Thinkofdeath grabs popcorn
09:53 < dx> let's not talk about this, okay? it's boring
09:53 < dx> shut up Thinkofdeath
09:53 < Thinkofdeath> :(
09:53 < dx> ..wait you didn't say anything
09:53 < dx> damn
09:54 < dx> Thinkofdeath: i used to grab popcorn for this stuff, but it's always the same shit, repeating
09:54 < Grum> yeah
09:54 < Grum> and the people starting the argument always fail in giving proper arguments :p
09:54 < Thinkofdeath> It gave me something to read when I was bored
09:55 < luntik13> somebody call pbunny.. he is good in explaining java problems
09:55 < dx> lol
09:55 < Grum> yeah
09:56 < Grum> he also had such a realistic view on the world, keep everything in 256GB of ram and emulate all of the worlds in just 32cpus
09:56 < luntik13> Grum can you unban him?
09:56 < Grum> nope
09:56 < Grum> he was very entertaining
09:57 < dx> too entertaining
09:57 <+ammar2> yeah, it was a fun novelty at first.
09:57 < dx> so entertaining that we found we didn't have enough motivation to do anything else in our lives, because nothing else was as entertaining as pbunny
09:57 < dx> :(
09:58 < Thinkofdeath> Still want to see his 'finished' server though
09:58 < Thinkofdeath> When/If it happens
09:59 < Grum> the real issue comes in when he starts to do actual expensive stuff on the server
10:00 < Grum> just running around in the world, placing blocks, crafting, cooking items is ... cheap
10:00 < dx> just call it a "creative" server and only implement block place and remove
10:01 < Grum> wait, minecraft classic~!
10:02 < Thinkofdeath> Lighting is the thing I haven't figured out yet otherwise I could do the creative server parts :)
10:02 < dx> yeah.. creative and fixed size world, sounds like classic
10:02 < SinZ> Fixed sized worlds are nice
10:02 < Grum> yeah lighting is a bitch
10:02 < jast> you know what else is cheap? simulating AI and custom mob reproduction... and redstone, of course
10:02 < Grum> feel free to write a clean tested library for that too! ;)
10:02 < Grum> yup :P
10:02 < Grum> ai/pathing .. cheap as hell
10:03 < jast> pathing is basically free
10:03 < jast> just do random walks. done!
10:03 < SinZ> And to follow players without walking into traps?
10:03 < jast> (ignore terrain)
10:03 < dx> you can turn any complex algorithm into something extremely cheap by outsourcing it
10:04 < jast> yeah, let google worry about it
10:04 < dx> or even better, sending it to the cloud
10:04 < luntik13> lol
10:04 < dx> let's run a redstone server in amazon ec2
10:04 < SinZ> Grum: can we have a launcher changelog site?
10:04 < jast> you know what else is cheap? making an algorithm distributed
10:04 < dx> jast: :D
10:04 < jast> network is essentially just as fast as the memory bus
10:04 < dx> of course
10:07 < Grum> SinZ: no
10:07 < SinZ> awww
10:07 < dx> the launcher is designed to be a sneaky motherfucker with its updates
10:07 < Grum> yup :p
10:07 < Grum> we want to update whenever the fuck we want
10:08 < Grum> also not obfuscated ... so erm ...
10:08 < dx> ..not obfuscated?
10:08 < dx> what
10:08 < SinZ> the launcher isn't obfuscated.
10:08 < dx> mojang can't release stuff that isn't obfucsated, that would make too much sense
10:08 < dx> *obfuscated
10:08 < SinZ> the old launcher never was either
10:09 < Grum> it gets a run through the obfuscator
10:09 < Grum> but just to remove unused code
10:09 < Grum> (we have some debugging stuff in it locally)
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10:13 < SinZ> Grum: how is the new launcher going to support the pre 13w16a versions that still expect to be wrapped in an applet?
10:13 < Grum> do we?
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10:14 < dx> i'm not good at tracking which week of the year it is
10:15 < SinZ> Grum: I count 1.5.1 and 1.5.2 as pre 13w16a
10:15 < Grum> dx: neither are we, we google for it every week ;)
10:15 < Grum> SinZ: we dont plan to so much for that tbh
10:15 < Grum> what is in there was just a test
10:15 < Grum> we might purge it
10:15 < dx> haha
10:15 < Grum> we might pursue it
10:15 < Grum> there are plenty of issues with it right now
10:17 < dx> oh no some tweet says that some company called "mojang" stole the money i paid to notch for minecraft
10:17 < Grum> so true
10:17 < Grum> and then we gave him the money
10:17 < Grum> 'really'
10:18 < SinZ> didn't dinnerbro tweet about how this mythical launcher can run any version of MC
10:18 < Grum> it can theoretically
10:18 < Grum> but there are issues
10:18 < Grum> 1) icon is broken
10:18 < Grum> 2) old versions have no concept of 'different workdir'
10:18 < SinZ> No assets get loaded
10:18 < SinZ> and the workdir issue
10:18 < Grum> 3) old versions have no concept of proxy
10:19 < Grum> SinZ: assets get loaded 'like normal'
10:19 < Grum> aka: they get downloaded during the game
10:19 < SinZ> They don't for my client
10:19 < SinZ> with the new launcher anyway
10:19 < Grum> they do
10:19 < Grum> it even creates a resources dir :(
10:20 < Grum> accidentally also the reason we store the new assets in assets not resources ;)
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11:20 < Not-003> [fCraft] fragmer * r1977 4 files : Converting MapGeneratorArgs fields to properties, fixing comment typos, implementing new RealisticMapGenState members.
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11:49 < AnotherOne> hello
11:57 < nastyCreeper> hi
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13:27 < Not-003> [wiki] Edit by Pbunny to Server List -> http://tinyurl.com/q4v2hgw
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13:35 <+pdelvo> pbunny even has written his own license
13:38 <+pdelvo> http://nessus.lv/nessusms :D
13:41 < TobiX> And reused a software project name...
13:41 < jast> items don't despawn
13:41 * jast drops two double chests worth of cobblestone
13:43 <+ammar2> Multiplayer first came only as client-to-client connection ("LAN"), so it used the same slow and inefficient language.
13:43 <+ammar2> hahaha
13:43 < nastyCreeper> lol
13:46 < TobiX> Someone did his history lessons...
13:47 < dav1d> ,k
13:47 < dav1d> lol
13:47 < dav1d> Async Networking/Posix Threads
13:47 < dav1d> since when asynv
13:47 < dav1d> *async
13:48 -!- Stormx2 [~Stormx2@cpc18-sotn9-2-0-cust33.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #mcdevs
13:49 < dav1d> this homepage should be a bad joke
13:49 < dav1d> but unfortunatly it isn't
13:49 < dav1d> (not even speaking of the design)
13:50 < dav1d> and the broken JS
13:50 < dav1d> |