13:29 < dav1d> haha
13:29 < dav1d> AnotherOne: you just went full retard
13:29 < dav1d> "d sux" "i dunno"
13:30 < dav1d> clonejo: yes it is
13:30 < AnotherOne> why so aggressive?
13:30 < dav1d> clonejo: well, there is a D2 port, which works together with phobos
13:30 <+clonejo> AnotherOne: please lets not have another flame war
13:30 < AnotherOne> ok
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13:35 < pbunny> pdelvo: wiki.vg is easier to read and navigate though
13:36 < pbunny> no unneeded github stuff
13:36 < pbunny> also, it's prettier
13:36 < AnotherOne> ++
13:37 < pbunny> i may agree that github is better at editing, but wiki is read much more than wrote
13:38 < pbunny> that's why github is good for code (which involves roughly the same reads as writes, or more writes) and is not for wiki
13:38 <+pdelvo> everything that worked in the wiki works there too. And I dont think that that (https://github.com/md-5/TestWiki/blob/master/README.mediawiki#Block_Break_Animation_0x37) is hard to read
13:40 <+clonejo> We could create a search based interface
13:42 < pbunny> pdelvo: links don't work, mostly
13:43 <+pdelvo> md_5 has only put one page on github... links will work too
13:44 < pbunny> github content will have worse SEO than wiki.vg
13:45 < pbunny> which means googling for some packet may bring users to some forums instead of our pages
13:45 < pbunny> also, the wiki will be put in control of github, whatever it decides to do with it
13:47 <+clonejo> pbunny: We can automatically create HTML pages from the repo
13:47 < pbunny> clonejo: yes, that's what i proposed. keep wiki.vg and use github to update it
13:47 <+pdelvo> seo is not much a deal because there is not other wiki page with the protocol description of the current minecraft version. because git is destributed there are many backups of the wiki. now we only have wiki.vg and maybe backups kev made
13:49 < pbunny> pdelvo: how about http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Classic_server_protocol ?
13:50 <+pdelvo> this is the classic protcol and not the current one
13:58 < pbunny> ah
14:01 < AnotherOne> i missed the line, sorry
14:01 < AnotherOne> so why github wiki?
14:01 < AnotherOne> wiki for wiki is more ok i think
14:01 < pbunny> AnotherOne: better for pages editing / management iirc
14:01 < pbunny> branches
14:03 < AnotherOne> if i make c++ library for protocol serialization/deserialization and encryption/decryption, will it be needed?
14:04 < AnotherOne> or am i reinventing a wheel?
14:05 < pbunny> encryption/decryption constsists of line additional 10 lines of code
14:05 < pbunny> oops, consists
14:05 <+clonejo> AnotherOne: http://www.wiki.vg/Library_List
14:06 < AnotherOne> i saw that link
14:06 < AnotherOne> c libs are ancient
14:06 < AnotherOne> like mammonth's sh*t
14:07 <+clonejo> AnotherOne: libmcnet is just 1.3.2
14:07 < AnotherOne> oh
14:07 < AnotherOne> i saw it too
14:07 < pbunny> pdelvo: seo problem remains, however. if we move everything to github and close wiki.vg, google will keep only github results (which have low seo rank). then, if somebody creates a web page with 2 level domain and put content from github there, it may rise higher than github result
14:07 < AnotherOne> macros everywhere:D
14:07 < pbunny> which means he will actually hijack the page
14:08 < AnotherOne> i prefer abstraction layers
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14:09 <+pdelvo> someone can do that now too. the wiki.vg page is not very search engine optimized
14:09 <+pdelvo> too
14:10 <+pdelvo> the only meta tag is the generator no descritpions, no keyword. nothing
14:10 <+clonejo> What about grouping the packets like this: https://github.com/clonejo/TestWiki/blob/master/packet-groups-proposal ?
14:11 < pbunny> pdelvo: in case 2 second-level-domains share the same content, google strongly prefers the one that was first
14:11 < pbunny> in case of second-level domain and github account, i'm not sure
14:11 <+clonejo> pbunny: wiki.vg can redirect to the new page
14:11 <+pdelvo> an extra group page maybe, but I think order by packet id is important too
14:12 < dx_> >seo
14:12 < dx_> do we actually care about this?
14:12 <+pdelvo> We can put a 301, moved permamently and google knows that it was just moved there
14:12 < AnotherOne> kev007 is easily found
14:13 < SinZ> only if you add 2 to his name
14:13 < AnotherOne> but does this wiki need optimization?
14:13 < SinZ> yep
14:14 <+clonejo> fun fact: googling "minecraft protocol" doesn't even find wiki.vg, but mc.kev009.com
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14:14 < AnotherOne> what if it will be flooded with "hi guyz i want to make mah plugin but i cant write programs do it for me i will be ur leader" people?:)
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14:15 <+pdelvo> maybe google prefers .com over .vg
14:15 < AnotherOne> and yes, 009
14:15 < pbunny> AnotherOne: in C, initialize the ciphers on handshake like this - http://dpaste.org/NMv9J/ (search for RSA_* , EVP_*). then use them like this - http://dpaste.org/KOOrw/ (search for EVP_*)
14:15 < pbunny> hope that helps
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14:17 < pbunny> clonejo: probably because it was there first
14:17 < dx_> AnotherOne: flooded with.. what? i don't see that happening now. the worst we get is people pretending to know a language and living in an alternate reality in which the concepts of "good practices" are completely different.
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14:17 < dav1d> dx_: haha
14:18 < AnotherOne> it is for now
14:18 < AnotherOne> popularity kills
14:18 < AnotherOne> look at memes
14:18 < AnotherOne> those faces everyehere
14:18 < dx_> i don't see where you expect this popularity to come from
14:19 < dx_> i mean... anyone who cares enough about the protocol can find this place easily
14:21 <+pdelvo> one more andvantage: having an offline copy of the wiki is just cloning the repo
14:21 < dx_> yeah, i actually like that part
14:22 < SinZ> but just having the backend of the wiki running off git gets the same backup, with a more wiki user interface
14:23 < dx_> i'm a bit concerned about the fact that every edit by a 'non-voiced' user will have to go through review, and that might discourage minor edits that might be useful
14:23 < AnotherOne> does anyone here have an experience with bosot::asio?
14:24 <+pdelvo> accepting it is just pressing a button
14:24 < AnotherOne> boost*
14:24 < dx_> pdelvo: still not instant
14:24 < SinZ> dx_: which is why when kev's server went down last time, we were considering switching to a git-based wiki
14:24 < dx_> is there a git backend for mediawiki? that would be perfect IMO
14:25 < SinZ> not for mediawiki, but there is for other wiki software
14:27 < dx_> also, are edit reviews *needed*? do you often need to revert edits completely?
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14:28 <+pdelvo> no. I think 99% are not reverted, but I dont see a problem with creating a pull request "Fixed a typo". It is just pressing one button to accept it
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14:30 < dx_> pdelvo: what about the process to submit the edit? i think you mentioned that cloning isn't needed, but i have no idea how this would work
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14:30 <+pdelvo> https://github.com/clonejo/TestWiki/blob/master/README.mediawiki
14:30 <+pdelvo> there is a Edit button
14:31 < dx_> whoa
14:31 <+pdelvo> this will do everything for you
14:31 < dx_> the wonders of technology
14:32 < dx_> this reminds me that i'm not really comfortable with relying too much on github, since every time it goes down for unplanned maintenance everyone seems to want to commit suicide
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14:32 < pbunny> dx_: iirc it never positioned self as reliable host for content
14:33 < dx_> it's supposed to be about a distributed version control system but nobody clones repos anymore
14:33 < pbunny> so i hold up to point of keep the wiki.vg and pull changes to it frmo github and counterwise
14:35 < dx_> well, it's going to be a bunch of static pages if github is the backend, so nothing stops them from using a different hosting service for the static version alone
14:36 <+pdelvo> And a network of people + a big company having clones of the repo is more relyable than one single person
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15:19 < AnotherOne> http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_53_0/doc/html/boost_asio/tutorial/tutdaytime1/src.html
15:19 < AnotherOne> dat boost
15:19 < AnotherOne> i like the way it connects
15:19 < AnotherOne> >_<
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15:49 <+clonejo> We could use http://fletcherpenney.net/multimarkdown/ for the wiki.
15:50 <+clonejo> There is also kind of a CMS, generating entire webpages from MultiMarkdown (http://fletcherpenney.net/multimarkdown/cms/)
15:53 <+pdelvo> Then we have to translate the complete wiki into markdown
15:54 <+pdelvo> I like markdown and hate the meadiawiki syntax, but this is a huge job to do
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15:57 <+pdelvo> we could convert markdown -> html -> markdown but Im not sure if the result is garbage or something we can work with
15:58 <+sadimusi> 80% of the wiki are tables and iirc there are no tables in markdown
15:59 <+pdelvo> markdown supports html in it
15:59 <+sadimusi> if 80% of our markdown is HTML we can just as well use HTML
15:59 <+sadimusi> (which I don't think is a good idea)
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16:00 <+pdelvo> the html syntax for a table is more user friendly then the mediawiki version I think
16:01 <+sadimusi> definitely
16:02 <+sadimusi> I always liked dokuwiki's syntax way more https://www.dokuwiki.org/wiki:syntax#tables
16:03 <+pdelvo> this is something which would be great to have in markdown
16:03 <+sadimusi> yes
16:04 <+sadimusi> multimarkdown apparently has tables
16:04 < dav1d> moin2 wiki?
16:05 <+sadimusi> http://fletcher.github.io/peg-multimarkdown/mmd-manual.pdf page 23
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16:10 <+clonejo> We could also use plain HTML
16:11 < pbunny> ++
16:12 <+sadimusi> sure, but we'd need some guidelines
16:12 <+sadimusi> plus a filter
16:12 <+pdelvo> html is not a bad idea. easy to write and also great for your personal offline copy because you can view it in your browser. reading mediawiki is pain compared to that
16:12 < pbunny> sadimusi: what filter?
16:12 < pbunny> sadimusi: everyone knows html now
16:12 <+sadimusi> no scripts and stuff
16:13 < pbunny> sadimusi: won't it be on github?
16:13 < pbunny> btw, script can be used to do nice stuff
16:14 < pbunny> i.e. embed some calculator / search fields
16:14 < pbunny> in some packets
16:14 < pbunny> etc
16:14 <+sadimusi> the template might contain scripts, but the individual pages definitely shouldn't
16:15 < pbunny> sadimusi: if wiki will be on github, somebody will inspect the changes anyway
16:15 <+pdelvo> And no external images or other resources
16:15 < pbunny> it's very hard to hide malicious script within 20-line change
16:15 < dav1d> reST
16:17 <+sadimusi> there still needs to be some kind of templating system, we can't have boilerplate code on every page
16:17 <+sadimusi> pbunny: nobody wants your calculator and search field ;)
16:17 <+pdelvo> My browser supports strg + f :)
16:17 <+sadimusi> and I doubt anybody will inspect all the changes
16:20 <+clonejo> sadimusi: We just need enough people to be able to accept pull requests
16:20 <+clonejo> s/to be/being/
16:20 < dav1d> are all voiced not enough?
16:21 <+sadimusi> should probably be enough
16:21 <+clonejo> yep
16:21 < dav1d> clonejo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MF5bcmvJ0o garbage collectors :D
16:23 <+clonejo> dav1d: Downloaded right away :-)
16:24 < dav1d> yeah I should have downloaded it for the train...
16:24 < dav1d> but I can't resist :D
16:24 < dav1d> (watching it)
16:25 <+clonejo> So now we need a nice static website generator
16:25 < pbunny> dav1d: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD_ftakp2iU
16:25 < pbunny> that's how java gc works
16:25 < dav1d> reST
16:26 < dav1d> reST has table and there are static page generators
16:27 <+clonejo> dav1d: any link to reST?
16:27 <+clonejo> it's ungoogleable
16:28 < dav1d> clonejo: re structured text, sphinx syntax
16:28 < dav1d> for documentation
16:28 < dav1d> similiar to markdown but not quite the same
16:28 < dav1d> e.g. llvm or python docs are built with sphinx
16:28 < dav1d> and sphinx can generate static files from rest
16:29 < dav1d> clonejo: http://docutils.sourceforge.net/rst.html
16:29 <+clonejo> found that, too
16:29 < dav1d> well it's not only a sphinx thing more like python
16:31 <+clonejo> dav1d: We need a generator that can do templates, so we can apply DRY.
16:31 < dav1d> clonejo: that is what sphinx does
16:31 < dav1d> you have the content as reST, template etc. is handled by sphinx
16:31 < dav1d> that would be a table e.g. https://bitbucket.org/dav1d/mplayerctrl/src/b712bf2559da97274ae1845178933dd301098831/documentation/html/_sources/reference.txt?at=default#cl-671
16:32 < dav1d> there are a few table syntaxes 
16:32 <+clonejo> How is mcdevs.org generated?
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16:33 < dav1d> clonejo: that's moin? not sure
16:34 < dav1d> na
16:34 <+clonejo> it does use YUI
16:34 < dav1d> I think TkTech looked into moin2 but then decided to use something else
16:34 < dav1d> but is something written in python, it includes pygments
16:35 < dav1d> (pygments css)
16:36 < dav1d> and templates look like jinja2
16:36 < dav1d> clonejo: https://github.com/TkTech/mcdevs.org/blob/master/wiki/site/lighttpd.md
16:36 < dav1d> markdoc
16:41 <+clonejo> Personally I'd rather go for a generator that takes in plain HTML, so you don't have to learn another markup language.
16:42 < zutto> theres always twig if nothing else seems good enough
16:43 <+pdelvo> the problem with plain html is, that if we use some kind of template system then the pages are maybe not readable on their own
16:44 <+clonejo> pdelvo: We could avoid using a template system by loading repeated content through JavaScript
16:44 < dav1d> reST was designed that is readable in plain
16:44 < dav1d> clonejo: bad
16:44 < dav1d> some people have JS disabled by default
16:44 < dav1d> and I dont think a wiki should require JS to be able to see anything
16:46 <+pdelvo> @dav1d I like that table you posted. Its like I would write a table in plain txt. This is how it should be
16:46 < dav1d> pdelvo: yeha, also it supports different types of tables like tables made out of | - +
16:47 <+clonejo> dav1d: can it do multiline tables?
16:47 < dav1d> but writing these by hand is harder than using the table I linked
16:47 < dav1d> clonejo: yes
16:47 <+sadimusi> isn't mcdevs.org just flask?
16:47 < dav1d> this table is multiline
16:47 <+sadimusi> with jinja2 as the templating system
16:47 < dav1d> sadimusi: it's markdown based
16:47 <+sadimusi> hm, then I was thinking of notifi.co
16:48 <+sadimusi> mcdevs.org uses markdoc
16:49 <+sadimusi> oh, you mentioned that before
16:49 <+sadimusi> I liked the idea of writing in html, everybody here knows it
16:51 < dav1d> I don't like it
16:51 < dav1d> html sucks
16:51 < dav1d> I rather write in a markup
16:51 <+clonejo> dav1d: HTML is markup, too
16:52 < dav1d> you're way faster done, generated html is always valid and things are fixed faster than messing with html
16:52 < dav1d> clonejo: you know what I meant
16:53 <+sadimusi> for most people html is just as good as wysiwyg whereas any other syntax requires endless preview/fix cycles
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16:54 <+sadimusi> and I doubt it's any slower than other syntaxes
16:54 <+sadimusi> especially if you use emmet
16:55 < dav1d> what I like about a wiki is, I click edit fix what I wanted to fix and I am out in less than a minute
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16:55 <+clonejo> We could use templates to only pull in the repeated content, so the main part of each site is readable on its own
16:56 < dav1d> if I wanna then stress something by underlining I have to use a span tag and use css...
16:56 < dav1d> (e.g. color)
16:56 <+clonejo> <u> … </u>
16:56 < dav1d> clonejo: color
16:57 < dav1d> whereas I think you can predifine ** e.g. to be bold underline and grey
16:57 <+sadimusi> is there color anywhere in the wiki?
16:57 < dav1d> sadimusi: just an example, what about underline and bold?
16:57 < dav1d> takes longer to write the html tags than **...**
16:57 < dav1d> also it gets unreadable if you read it without a browser
16:58 <+sadimusi> u>b and tab, donw
16:58 <+sadimusi> *done
16:58 < dav1d> ?
16:58 < dav1d> I dont wanna fire up an editor for a small change
16:58 < dav1d> going to github is already a huge step imo
16:59 <+sadimusi> why go to github? just edit your local copy
16:59 < dav1d> nearly everything I fixed on wiki.vg was short actions during implementing something
16:59 < dav1d> sadimusi: I won't have a local copy
16:59 < dav1d> that's not how a wiki works for me
16:59 < dav1d> I would also only use the edit button of gituhb
16:59 <+sadimusi> well I agree, it won't really be a wiki anymore
16:59 < dav1d> others might think differently but for me this is not a wiki
17:00 <+clonejo> true
17:00 <+sadimusi> despite the awful syntax, why are we talking about a new system btw?
17:01 < dav1d> no idea
17:01 < dav1d> md5 came up with moving the wiki to github
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17:09 < eddyb> wait, what are we talking about?
17:10 < eddyb> what do you want to move the wiki to?
17:11 < pbunny> eddyb: github
17:11 < eddyb> github pages or github wiki?
17:11 < eddyb> IIRC they both can use markdown, or you can have whatever syntax you like and convert to HTML
17:12 < pbunny> eddyb: https://github.com/md-5/TestWiki/blob/master/README.mediawiki
17:12 < pbunny> i myself downvote that, except for using github as backend for current wiki
17:12 < eddyb> I didn't know it supported mediawiki
17:13 < eddyb> (I'm seeing a few hundred lines of backlog, I won't read all that just for the small chance of being able to help you guys :P)
17:13 < pbunny> eddyb: just trust me. wiki on github is a bad idea
17:14 < eddyb> what about using the github wiki feature?
17:14 < eddyb> or github pages?
17:15 < pbunny> what is "github wiki"?
17:15 < eddyb> https://github.com/md-5/TestWiki/wiki
17:15 < eddyb> it's not enabled, so it just redirects
17:16 < eddyb> https://github.com/mozilla/rust/wiki
17:16 < eddyb> https://github.com/mozilla/rust/wiki/_access
17:17 < edk> i think a separate renderer using a git repository as the data store makes more sense than trying to use github for the actual wiki
17:17 < pbunny> i like wiki.vg because it's simple to read (no github/etc stuff), pretty and usable
17:17 < pbunny> easy to edit, too
17:17 < pbunny> can be improved even more, btw
17:18 < eddyb> edk: github pages is like that
17:18 < pbunny> i.e. select the relevant part with mouse and it transforms to text input where you can edit it
17:18 < pbunny> then instantly saved as change via ajax
17:19 < edk> github pages isn't really wiki-ish afaik
17:19 < edk> ones where you edit in place are annoying, i'd rather one where you edit the whole file
17:19 < eddyb> yeah, but you can use it to host a wiki
17:19 < edk> the wiki needs some dynamic content if you can edit pages through it
17:19 < eddyb> edk: github wiki supports mediawiki, markdown, and 6 other formats I've never heard of
17:20 < edk> i'm aware
17:20 < edk> but what has that got to do with anything? :P
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17:21 < edk> the problem i see with using github's stuff is there's no way (that i know of) to make a wiki where you can get an account and start editing it through the actual wiki
17:21 < edk> you'd have to go to the corresponding github repo and get Tk to give you push access
17:21 < eddyb> https://github.com/mozilla/rust/wiki/Note-seeing-LLVM-output-from-rust press Edit Page
17:22 < eddyb> heh, that's actually written in textile, not markdown, as the rest of the wiki
17:22 < edk> oh right, if we use the wiki feature
17:22 < edk> i thought you were talking about github pages
17:22 < eddyb> yeah, nevermind the pages, I didn't think too much about the dynamic side of things
17:23 < eddyb> https://github.com/mozilla/rust/wiki/Lib-re/_edit hah, I didn't know about markdown+tables
17:24 < edk> i wonder how hard it would be to make something that renders a github repo as markdown
17:24 < edk> and ends up with something like the current wiki
17:25 < pbunny> is current wiki's content kept in db?
17:25 < edk> it's mediawiki so yeah it'll be in a RDB
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18:28 <+clonejo> Why don't we use a Github wiki, which has both web and git access
18:32 <+pdelvo> that sounds good
18:33 <+pdelvo> it does not support branches as far as i see
18:34 <+clonejo> they might be hidden in the web frontend
18:34 <+clonejo> one downside is that we won't have nice urls
18:35 <+clonejo> or we put up our own Gollum instance
18:35 <+clonejo> https://github.com/gollum/gollum
18:37 <+pdelvo> ah branching works but not in the ui
18:37 <+pdelvo> https://github.com/pdelvo/TestWiki/wiki/Testpage/Dev
18:39 <+clonejo> perfect
18:40 <+pdelvo> And tags work too: https://github.com/pdelvo/TestWiki/wiki/Testpage/Testversion
18:42 <+pdelvo> hm this does not look like it should be used. you can not see the history of a different branch then master
18:42 <+pdelvo> https://github.com/pdelvo/TestWiki/wiki/_history/Dev does not work
18:43 <+sadimusi> apparently tables work on github as well
18:43 <+clonejo> pdelvo: you can still do git log or gitk or even put it on Github as a regular repo
18:43 <+pdelvo> the compareview supports branching when you edit the url
18:44 <+pdelvo> jeah this will work, but it looks some kind of dirty :/
18:54 <+pdelvo> so what do we want. plain html, markdown, mediawiki or something else? 
18:59 <+clonejo> Does MediaWiki have an export function?
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19:01 <+pdelvo> I dont think so. you can just read the database
19:02 <+clonejo> sadly Gollum provides no auth mechanism
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19:40 < dx_> http://www.wiki.vg/Special:Export
19:45 <+clonejo> dx_: that's something
19:46 < TkTech> <kev009> full dumps of the wiki are run weekly and provided at http://wiki.vg/wiki-latest.xml.bz2 (full XML backup) and http://wiki.vg/wiki-latest-images.tar.bz2
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19:57 < TkTech> dx_: ^
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20:03 < dx_> TkTech: neat.
20:12 <+pdelvo> Beginning of the protocol page in markdown: https://github.com/pdelvo/TestWiki/wiki/Protocol Should I go on?
20:15 < dx_> why not parse the mediawiki and output markdown?
20:16 < dav1d> markdown has no tables?
20:16 < dx_> markdown has extensions for tables, and github includes them
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20:17 <+pdelvo> I really like how they look like in markdown. They look pretty without rendering them to html https://gist.github.com/pdelvo/2c65f3c1f72b1fa6ec8d
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20:23 < dx_> this parser seems cool http://pythonhosted.org/mwparserfromhell/usage.html
20:24 < dx_> also, i'm not sure if markdown is the way to go
20:25 < dx_> i like the format but for some stuff it's too simple, and i always have to rely on extensions to do interesting stuff
20:25 < dx_> if your renderer is going to be github you can't add more extensions
20:27 <+pdelvo> then you cann fallback to html
20:32 < eddyb> pdelvo: you didn't provide a preview for that markdown :P https://gist.github.com/eddyb/9f90069378b1e0ea8178
20:32 <+pdelvo> Isnt that pretty?
20:35 < eddyb> yes it is :)
20:38 <+pdelvo> https://github.com/pdelvo/TestWiki/wiki/Protocol
20:39 < TkTech> https://github.com/michael/github and/or http://prose.io/, which is how http://project-open-data.github.io/ works.
20:39 < TkTech> (See the "Help Improve This content" button at the bottom)
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20:45 < eddyb> so you can have github pages in the shape of a wiki, and that are easy to edit?
21:00 <+pdelvo> why is github prefixing anchros with wiki-?? #login-request-0x01 becomes #wiki-login-request-0x01
21:01 <+clonejo> to avoid namespace clashes?
21:02 <+pdelvo> it only does that in the wiki. not at e.g. gist https://gist.github.com/pdelvo/2c65f3c1f72b1fa6ec8d#respawn-0x09
21:03 < dx_> hm, that sucks
21:06 <+pdelvo> https://github.com/gollum/gollum/issues/587
21:07 <+pdelvo> okay the last workaround is acceptable.
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21:28 < TkTech> eddyb: prose gives you 99% client-side github editing which uses github's permissions
21:28 < TkTech> Assuming you use OAuth, if you use basic authentication it's 100% client side.
21:29 < eddyb> yeah, I've tried it, and it works with any file in any repo, even if it's not github pages specifically
21:30 < eddyb> (well, any file it can edit, I tried only markdown files)
21:32 < TkTech> Right. github.js works with anything, prose.io works with text (it's an editor toolkit)
21:32 < TkTech> You're supposed to have a little server that does two things.
21:32 < TkTech> One, it proxies OAuth authentication so you don't have your application secret token in the open.
21:33 < TkTech> Two, it runs a jekyll build server. When a page is edited, jekyll pulls it and rebuilds the site.
21:34 < TkTech> (Which you don't need if you're using github pages)
21:38 < eddyb> thanks, it could be useful for something I'm working on
21:44 < TkTech> So does anyone know how this conversation got started? Did I miss the wiki going down?
21:49 <+AndrewPH> I think it was just the urge to move it to a new platform
21:49 < TkTech> Ah
21:50 < TkTech> It's come up a few times and I've looked at a few options. I keep coming to the conclusion we'd need something custom and it dies there.
21:50 < TkTech> http://gitit.net/ was the most promising I looked at.
21:51 < Thinkofdeath> I think this was the start "<md_5> [10:14:31] lets move wiki to git: https://github.com/md-5/TestWiki/blob/master/README.mediawiki"
21:54 <+AndrewPH> TkTech: oh neat
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22:15 <+clonejo> Thinkofdeath: This was today's start. It actually started weeks (months?) ago.
22:15 <+pdelvo> months
22:15 < Thinkofdeath> clonejo: Ah ok then
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22:40 <+pdelvo> I finished a good amaount of packets already. I really like that it is perfectly readable in a text editor :) https://gist.github.com/pdelvo/2c65f3c1f72b1fa6ec8d/raw/b79b5ef008fbcf5de03ce6df3caf66220aaf64e3/gistfile1.md
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22:46 < AnotherOne> http://i46.fastpic.ru/big/2013/0521/55/d28eee59b60226ef448ea9bd16ced155.png
22:46 < AnotherOne> not so perfect:)
22:47 <+sadimusi> don't use tabs
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22:54 <+pdelvo> saw that the second i posted that in here. already fixed https://gist.github.com/pdelvo/2c65f3c1f72b1fa6ec8d/raw/9d4e810b932eb0f566008a02f32d0b0b45215e60/gistfile1.txt :D
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23:02 < AnotherOne> what is it?
23:02 < AnotherOne> is it to be translated to normal wiki-like look?
23:03 <+pdelvo> I rewrite the complete page into markdown. This is how it looks now: http://wiki.vg/wiki/index.php?title=Protocol&action=edit
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23:10 < AnotherOne> and i am about to write code generator
23:10 < AnotherOne> fukk, making packet classes is so boring
23:14 <+clonejo> AnotherOne: my server has 3 lines per packet :D
23:16 < AnotherOne> show me an example please
23:17 <+pdelvo> This reminds me to that: Every programm has at least one bug. Every program can be reduced by one code line -> Every program can be reduced into one line which  does not work :D
23:17 <+clonejo> AnotherOne: 
23:17 <+clonejo> sry: https://github.com/clonejo/mc-erl/blob/master/src/mc_erl_packets.erl
23:18 <+sadimusi> clonejo: field names would be nice
23:18 <+clonejo> who needs filed names^^
23:18 <+clonejo> *field
23:18 < AnotherOne> heh
23:18 <+sadimusi> is the new teams packet in there?
23:18 < AnotherOne> dat erlang
23:19 < AnotherOne> something like class synthesis?
23:19 <+sadimusi> I had to add a new packet class to keep it short https://github.com/sadimusi/mc3p/blob/master/mc3p/messages.py#L888
23:19 <+clonejo> sadimusi: nope, I'm still on 1.4, not upgrading before I get my current changes done
23:20 < AnotherOne> hmm wait a minute
23:20 < AnotherOne> what about serialization/deserialization?
23:20 <+pdelvo> sadimusi I like the way youve done that
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23:21 <+clonejo> sadimusi: the teams packet is horrible to parse
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23:22 <+pdelvo> In my one this is a "little" bit bigger, but the Teams packet was no problem: https://github.com/pdelvo/Pdelvo.Minecraft/blob/master/Pdelvo.Minecraft.Protocol/Packets/Teams.cs#L36
23:23 <+sadimusi> you just have a class per packet, that's flexible but tedious to write
23:24 < dav1d> sadimusi: mixin!
23:24 < dav1d> or in python metaprogramming
23:24 < AnotherOne> http://pastebin.com/GstEU9xv
23:24 <+pdelvo> This is why I have my template pakcket implementation https://github.com/pdelvo/Pdelvo.Minecraft/blob/master/Pdelvo.Minecraft.Protocol/Packets/EmptyPacket.cs :D
23:24 < dav1d> let them generate, if it's not straight forward just code the method and let the __new__ skip it
23:24 < dav1d> python is awesome
23:24 < AnotherOne> path of the axe
23:25 < dav1d> or do it at compiletime with compile time function execution and/or templates
23:25 < dav1d> in a split-second <3
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23:26 <+sadimusi> dav1d: mc3p creates classes with a write and read method from these definitions
23:26 < dav1d> sadimusi: I would go with metaclasses or __new__
23:27 < dav1d> or maybe macros :D
23:27 < dav1d> always wanted to try the new macros
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23:27 <+sadimusi> py3k?
23:27 < dav1d> (well import hooks and ast manipulation)
23:27 < dav1d> sadimusi: since 2.6
23:27 <+sadimusi> never heard of them o.O
23:27 < dav1d> but there are python macro libraries
23:28 < dav1d> karnickel is one (a rather small) and just a few days ago I saw a really impressive one (from a short look at it)
23:28 < dav1d> *it at least looked impressive
23:29 <+sadimusi> now that you mention it, I think there was one on HN
23:29 < dav1d> no idea found it while randomly browsing github
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23:30 <+sadimusi> this one was on HN: https://github.com/lihaoyi/macropy#case-classes
23:31 <+sadimusi> might be handy, but I didn't find it groundbreaking
23:33 < dav1d> a macros itself aren't really needed but manipulating the ast at import time is cool :D
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23:39 <+sadimusi> dammit, someone just reported a DoS attack from me, just because I query their mc server every 30 seconds :/
23:40 < dav1d> lol
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23:42 <+sadimusi> oh wait, their server is listed 55 times :D so make that twice per second
23:44 < TkTech> sadimusi: "reported"? Reported you *where*? The internet police?
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23:44 <+sadimusi> TkTech: linode. I'm working it out with their staff now
23:44 <+sadimusi> probably have to merge those duplicate listings...
23:45 < TkTech> Working on a new project?
23:45 <+sadimusi> no, still the same old minecraftservers.org
23:47 < TkTech> Oh god so many blinking banners
23:47 <+sadimusi> thanks again for vouching for me btw
23:47 <+sadimusi> haha
23:47 <+sadimusi> that's what you get when you allow gifs
23:48 < TkTech> Are there no sanity checks on player counts?
23:48 < TkTech> How does 2000/1 make sense ;|
23:49 <+sadimusi> the client doesn't allow 0
23:49 <+pdelvo> wow there are 6 not blinking banners on that page
23:49 <+sadimusi> so servers with "unlimited" slots just put 1
23:50 < TkTech> Ah, makes sense.
23:50 <+sadimusi> most of the big servers use some kind of server distribution thingy like bungeecord
23:51 <+sadimusi> and somehow they seem to make a ton of money
23:51 < TkTech> Probably cheap, over-provisioned servers and excessive "donation" perks.
23:52 <+sadimusi> yeah
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23:52 <+sadimusi> but even with these donations I wouldn't have thought they'd make that much
23:53 <+sadimusi> those five sponserd servers on the top pay around 5k each month just to be there...
23:55 <+clonejo> All servers together or each?
23:55 <+sadimusi> each
23:55 <+clonejo> whew
23:55 <+sadimusi> the one on the top even payed 7k
23:56 <+sadimusi> I don't think they know how auctions work
23:57 < TkTech> And here I thought I was making some decent money with the skindex :|
23:57 <+sadimusi> I thought you sold it for 70-something-k
23:58 < dav1d> wtf
23:58 <+sadimusi> well, I also built http://www.minecraftskins.info for the same guy and I don't think it's making nearly as much money as the server list (for obvious reasons)
23:59 < dav1d> 5k a month, no reason to work
23:59 < Not-003> [wiki] Edit by Pbunny to Protocol -> http://tinyurl.com/qhmgy2c
--- Day changed mar. mai 21 2013
00:01 < dav1d> well 5k*5
00:01 <+sadimusi> yeah, apparently the servers make up to 100k monthly
00:02 <+pdelvo> realpvp.net -> last news entry: Need Donations!. now I know why :D
00:04 <+sadimusi> most servers don't just ask for donations but sell ingame content for sometimes huge amounts (e.g. http://mcthewalls.com/shop)
00:04 <+sadimusi> they even unban you for $5 :)
00:05 <+pdelvo> Jeah I saw that. Unban €10.00 >.<
00:07 <+AndrewPH> Jesus, you'd think a server that gets so much would have a better design than white bootstrap and enjin-hosted.
00:07 <+sadimusi> and apparently nobody wants to play plain minecraft anymore, all you can find are hunger games, war on a bridge or even poor DotA replicas
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00:08 <+AndrewPH> I just started advertising my minigame server a bit, everybody who's been on it loves it and wishes more people would join
00:08 <+AndrewPH> do I have to add things like VIP for people to join?
00:08 <+pdelvo> but who wants to play on a server were banned people can pay to get unbanned? I cant understand that
00:08 <+AndrewPH> do people WANT to pay money?
00:09 <+sadimusi> pdelvo: I think it only works for minor violations
00:10 <+sadimusi> AndrewPH: what kind of minigames do you offer?
00:10 <+AndrewPH> sadimusi: I have currently a huge ctf that takes place in a valley, a small pvp arena with varying terrain (lava, soul sand, ivy in places, doors, the works) and a small spleef arena.
00:10 <+AndrewPH> and soon, infection :D
00:11 <+AndrewPH> (about one third of the valley: http://i.imm.io/16KIm.png )
00:12 <+sadimusi> AndrewPH: if you want more players you have to advertise and that costs money...
00:12 <+AndrewPH> Oh, we advertise
00:13 <+AndrewPH> I just started specifically advertising the minigames as its own thing
00:13 <+AndrewPH> because it IS on a separate server in the network
00:13 <+sadimusi> you could of course just buy cheap votes on http://www.swiftvoter.com :D
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00:30 < AnotherOne> but who wants to play on a server were banned people can pay to get unbanned? I cant understand that
00:30 < AnotherOne> oh damn man yo're so right
00:30 < AnotherOne> you're
00:30 < AnotherOne> i've seen a sign "unban: 50 rub (for cheaters)"
00:31 < AnotherOne> facepalmd alot
00:31 < AnotherOne> greedy schoolboys
00:32 < AnotherOne> who run laggy pirated servers that deserve only to be ruined
00:34 <+AndrewPH> In my 3.4 years of hosting minecraft servers, I have never once required donations for anything. I also gave no mercy to griefers...
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00:37 < AnotherOne> :)
00:37 < AnotherOne> AndrewPH: does an average server have any griefer trackers?
00:38 < AnotherOne> for example if i stole someone's nice house of duped diamond blocks with pistons, can admin see it?
00:38 <+AndrewPH> logblock at least usually
00:38 <+AndrewPH> (my server is a bit different in that there's no way you can grief sans getting in the way in ctf)
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00:41 < AnotherOne> what is sans?
00:43 < eddyb> it means "without"
00:43 < eddyb> or "except"
00:43 < AnotherOne> thank you
00:46 <+AndrewPH> AnotherOne: sorry about the confusion
00:47 < AnotherOne> np:) it's my bad knowledge
00:49 < AnotherOne> "sans serif" became clear:)
00:49 <+AndrewPH> yay :D
00:52 < AnotherOne> you may call me a pervert, but i like to write my code generator
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01:02 < TkTech> sadimusi: 75. And I did, but a one-time payment is a big difference from $xx,xxx/month.
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01:42 < AnotherOne> i did it!
02:15 < AnotherOne> this great feeling
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02:28 <+AndrewPH> AnotherOne: what did you do?
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03:00 < AnotherOne> i made a code generator for my classes
03:00 < AnotherOne> so i dont need to do most of routine work
03:00 <+AndrewPH> neato :D
03:03 < AnotherOne> but its code is a little dirty:)
03:04 < AnotherOne> but who cares if it is one-time
03:05 <+sadimusi> wouldn't it be cooler to do it at runtime?
03:05 <+sadimusi> or in your case maybe when compiling
03:05 <+sadimusi> AnotherOne: ^
03:08  * TkTech wonders if there's a "Horrors of C++ templating" blog.
03:08 < AnotherOne> :D
03:08 < AnotherOne> yep
03:09 < AnotherOne> i must try templates
03:09 < AnotherOne> but later
03:09 < AnotherOne> it is 4 am and i must go to sleep
03:09 < AnotherOne> good luck to all of you
03:13 < TkTech> sadimusi: Feel like critiquing a new page design?
03:13 <+sadimusi> sure
03:13 < TkTech> sadimusi: http://w.tkte.ch/, just tossed it up there
03:15 <+AndrewPH> TkTech: I feel like it's too far to the left (1440x900 19in)
03:16 < TkTech> AndrewPH: It looks even worse centred  on a big screen. Vast empty oceans on both sides.
03:16 <+sadimusi> yeah, it feels like 3/4 of my monitor are unused (1920x180 40")
03:17 <+sadimusi> +0
03:17 < SinZ> if you centered it, and had the gray on both sides
03:17 <+AndrewPH> literally almost exactly half of my screen is just white
03:18 <+sadimusi> the commits also look a bit unstructured, maybe a small margin below the messages would help
03:18 <+sadimusi> And "Copyright ©" seems redundant
03:18 < TkTech> sadimusi: Can you clarify? Don't the chardets make it obvious?
03:19 < SinZ> I like the commit section
03:19 <+sadimusi> it's obvious once you look closer, but on the first glance it looks just like a giant wall of text
03:19 < TkTech> (Er, chevron)
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03:21 <+sadimusi> I'd also align the multi-line commit messages http://cl.ly/P56e
03:21 < SinZ> ^
03:23 < SinZ> maybe shade the background of the text slightly
03:24 < TkTech> Ah, hm.
03:24 < TkTech> The arrow isn't actually a bullet point.
03:24 < TkTech> Ahhh, there's a class for that™.
03:41 < TkTech> Not sure what I can do about the page being empty :|
03:47 <+sadimusi> TkTech: maybe you can think of something to put there
03:47 < TkTech> What, like some titanic background image/
03:47 < TkTech> *?
03:48 <+sadimusi> when I first saw your page, this image immediately came to my mind :) http://cdn.3news.co.nz/3news/AM/2012/4/12/250131/whitespace.jpg
03:48 <+sadimusi> how about a huge picture of you :P
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03:48 < TkTech> I don't want to be liable for all the broken screens that would entail.
03:55 <+sadimusi> how about just centering everything?
03:55 <+sadimusi> something like this http://cl.ly/P68t
03:57 < SinZ> and dont have an arrow for the multi-line commit
03:57 < SinZ> owait, nvm
03:59 <+sadimusi> and as I mentioned before, I'd prefer some space after the commit messages http://cl.ly/P5oB
04:02 < TkTech> That's kinda what it looked like originally
04:04 < TkTech> sadimusi: http://cl.ly/image/1Q2O1g3N0v1X
04:04 <+sadimusi> I'm a horrible designer, so you probably shouldn't listen to me :)
04:05 < SinZ> TkTech: that looks nice <3
04:06 <+sadimusi> that still looks a bit cramped, but I prefer it over the current version
04:07 <+sadimusi> even though these lines at the edge of the page do look nice
04:10 <+sadimusi> btw, why is it w.tkte.ch and not just tkte.ch?
04:10 <+sadimusi> I know it was a wiki once, but I'd drop the w
04:12 < TkTech> It serves some legacy links
04:12 <+sadimusi> 301 to it
04:19 <+sadimusi> TkTech: googling your name is no fun :/
04:19 < TkTech> I am an *amazing* NHL player.
04:19 < TkTech> The autocomplete for my name is usually along the lines of, "Is tyler kennedy single yet"
04:20 < TkTech> OUCH, first result for "is tyler kennedy …", "is tyler kennedy retarded"
04:20 <+sadimusi> he looks a bit like he is P:
04:21 <+sadimusi> at least on the picture google uses http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/nhl/players/full/3339.png
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04:29 <+sadimusi> at least I can't find anything relevant about me either
04:31 <+SpaceManiac> I guess I can consider myself lucky that I'm the most relevant person with my name
04:31 <+sadimusi> dammit, I just found a video of me :/
04:32 < TkTech> sadimusi: (You've always been able to just whois any of my domains, I do bi-weekly meetups and coffee all the time so there's no point trying to hide my details)
04:32 < TkTech> sadimusi: I must find this video
04:38 <+AndrewPH> Tyler Kennedy: Developer, NHL Player. What can't he do?
04:38 <+AndrewPH> I've heard that he's even traveled through time, once
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05:51 <+sadimusi> wow, already 6am? I guess there's no point in going to sleep now...
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07:03 < AnotherOne> hello
07:04 <+sadimusi> morning
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08:25 < Not-003> [bravo] MostAwesomeDude pushed 1 commit to master [+0/-0/±1] http://git.io/pkc-vw
08:25 < Not-003> [bravo] Corbin Simpson 2d4f4b4 - terrain/trees: A couple cleanups. Tired of this module now.
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09:21 < TkTech> sadimusi: Yeah, I'm giving up on sleep.
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09:25 -!- mode/#mcdevs [+v md_5] by ChanServ
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10:52 < pbunny> Grum: any possibility of minecraft client to handle world change between worlds with same dimension correctly?
10:54  * md_5 head desk
10:54 < pbunny> md_5: hi, btw
10:54 <+md_5> pbunny use your brain please
10:54 <+md_5> think about how we may go about solving this problem
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10:56 <+md_5> pbunny got it yet?
10:56 <+pdelvo> Here is a tip: https://github.com/pdelvo/Pdelvo.Minecraft.Proxy/blob/master/Pdelvo.Minecraft.Proxy/ServerChangePlugin/ServerChangePlugin.cs#L125
10:56 < pbunny> md_5: easy. just add "is_another_world" boolean to http://www.wiki.vg/Protocol#Respawn_.280x09.29
10:56  * md_5 cries
10:57 < pbunny> md_5: then, if its true, server will be able to teleport player to another world with same dimension
10:57 <+md_5> you are killing me
10:57 < pbunny> i.e. from overworld to another overworld
10:57 < SinZ> it can be done, but it isn't needed for vannila
10:57 < pbunny> now it doesn't work right
10:57 <+md_5> hint: bungeecord sends users to the same dimension
10:57 < pbunny> SinZ: true
10:57 <+md_5> hint:
10:57 <+md_5>                 user.sendPacket( Packet9Respawn.DIM1_SWITCH );
10:57 <+md_5>                 user.sendPacket( Packet9Respawn.DIM2_SWITCH );
10:57 <+pdelvo> send them a respawn to an other dimension and directly after that send them to your dimension
10:58 < pbunny> pdelvo: right
10:58 <+md_5> what pdelvo said
10:58 <+md_5>     public static final Packet9Respawn DIM1_SWITCH = new Packet9Respawn( (byte) 1, (byte) 0, (byte) 0, (short) 256, "DEFAULT" );
10:58 <+md_5>     public static final Packet9Respawn DIM2_SWITCH = new Packet9Respawn( (byte) -1, (byte) 0, (byte) 0, (short) 256, "DEFAULT" );
10:58 < pbunny> i know about that solution, but that's UGLY
10:58 < SinZ> then do it
10:58 <+md_5> ... this is Minecraft
10:58 <+md_5> dont bloody ping mojangsta;s because you are too lazy to do your own solution
10:58 <+md_5> its ONE line of code
10:59 <+md_5> player.sendPacket(otherDimension)
10:59 <+md_5> player.sendPacket(actualDImensionSendPacketYouAlreadyHave)
10:59 < SinZ> Minecraft doesn't need to have it neat, as it doesn't effect vannila, except use slightly more bandwidth every time someone dies
10:59 <+md_5> SinZ dammit, 30 bytes
10:59 <+md_5> you are killing me
10:59 < SinZ> md_5: I mean if Mojang were to add the boolean
10:59 <+md_5> oh they would never
10:59 < pbunny> md_5: boolean is 1 byte
10:59 <+md_5> that would be f8**
10:59 < pbunny> not 30
11:00 <+md_5> pbunny I meant in total packet sie
11:00 < pbunny> i know what you meant
11:00 <+md_5> thought he was referring to us sending a second packet
11:00 < SinZ> if they did, it'll be more bandwidth to the majority that wont benefit from it
11:00 < SinZ> so the minority sending a second packet is fine
11:00 < pbunny> SinZ: if they were so concerned about bandwidth, vanilla client wouldn't send like 10 0x0D packets every second
11:01 < SinZ> should really ask dinnerbro why he hasn't nerfed that yet
11:01 <+pdelvo> I dont see your problem with sending **2** packets
11:01 < SinZ> he did it instantly in bukkit
11:01 < pbunny> pdelvo: i don't have problem with it, be calm :p
11:01 < SinZ> then again, bukkit over-nerfed it
11:01 < pbunny> i just don't like ugly hack way of solutions
11:02 < jast> says someone who uses cpp macros til kingdom come
11:02 < pbunny> jast: where?
11:03 < jast> ISTR that you defined a crapload of functions as macros to avoid using something sensible (like the inline keyword)
11:03 < pbunny> ah, that was old code
11:04 < jast> what happened? enlightenment? :P
11:05 < pbunny> if you like
11:06 < Not-003> [wiki] Edit by Md 5 to Protocol -> http://tinyurl.com/mnm2sfg
11:06 < jast> in the end I don't really care... but it's a nice word
11:08 < pbunny> md_5: i didn't touch the table, it was already there
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11:11 <+pdelvo> @md_5 That is better then before, but not as good as that: https://gist.github.com/pdelvo/2c65f3c1f72b1fa6ec8d/raw/9d4e810b932eb0f566008a02f32d0b0b45215e60/gistfile1.txt
11:12 < SinZ> md_5: is respawn server->client or two way?
11:12 <+md_5> nowadays server->client
11:12 < SinZ> it says server->client, yet in difficulty, it references some client->server
11:13 <+pdelvo> that changed, so maybe we have not changed it there too
11:13 < SinZ> why does difficulty need to be sent, anyway?
11:13 < pbunny> SinZ: i never got respawn from client
11:15 <+pdelvo> Client Statuses (0xCD) is what is sent now Client -> Server
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11:18 < SinZ> Maybe change the text in the difficulty table?
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11:18 <+md_5> welp
11:18 <+md_5> hope this goes well
11:19 <+md_5> (cur | prev) 21:15, 20 May 2013‎ Md 5 (Talk | contribs)‎ . . (69,121 bytes) (-50,002)‎ . . (Massive table cleanup) (undo)
11:19 <+pdelvo> looks okay
11:19 < Not-003> [wiki] Edit by Md 5 to Protocol -> http://tinyurl.com/pzh3e4f
11:20  * md_5 is happy
11:29 < SinZ> that quite possibly could be the largest edit ever done
11:29 < SinZ> (to the protocol page)
11:32 <+md_5> you do realise that edit got rid of nearly half the page?
11:32 <+md_5> 120kb to 68kb
11:33 < shoghicp> woo
11:33 < Not-003> [wiki] Edit by Md 5 to Protocol -> http://tinyurl.com/kaxgbdq
11:33 <+md_5> I wanna know why we have those useless anchor tags'
11:34 <+md_5> headers are anchors..
11:34 <+md_5> for http://www.wiki.vg/Protocol#0x3D I guess
11:34 <+md_5> so you can direct link
11:37 <+md_5> pbunny its even on the wiki:'
11:37 <+md_5>      Please avoid changing player's dimension to same dimension as he was in (i.e. from Nether to Nether, from Overworld to Overworld). While at first glance everything seems to work, weird bugs can occur, i.e. such player will be unable to attack other players in new world (minecraft client just won't send "Use Entity (0x07)" packet on hitting, only "Animation (0x12)" packet), even though he can see them and they can attack him (fixes after his death and 
11:37 <+md_5> respawn though). 
11:37 <+md_5> If you actually have multiple worlds of same dimension on server and need to teleport player between them, use intermediate world (with different dimension) between them. 
11:38 <+md_5> >If you actually have multiple worlds of same dimension on server and need to teleport player between them, use intermediate world (with different dimension) between them. 
11:38 < Not-003> [wiki] Edit by Md 5 to Protocol -> http://tinyurl.com/mw253s4
11:40 < Not-003> [wiki] Edit by Md 5 to Protocol -> http://tinyurl.com/mrcoswf
11:43 < pbunny> **:33:29        +md_5 | pbunny its even on the wiki:
11:43 < pbunny> lol, i wrote it
11:45 < Not-003> [wiki] Edit by Md 5 to Protocol -> http://tinyurl.com/ouwe6xm
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11:50 < Not-003> [wiki] Edit by Md 5 to Pre-release protocol -> http://tinyurl.com/ldsj933
11:51 <+pdelvo> md_5 have you read the diskussion after you left yesterday?
11:51 <+md_5> yes
11:51 <+pdelvo> what do you think?
11:52 <+md_5> the problem with it is they all look very minimal in terms of design
11:52 <+md_5> which as a user doesnt give me a good feel about the info
11:53 <+md_5> the wiki also has the advantage of being *really* open
11:54 < Not-003> [wiki] Edit by Md 5 to Pre-release protocol -> http://tinyurl.com/luz2dwc
11:54 < SinZ> which is why git backend would be nice
11:54 <+md_5> wat
11:54 < SinZ> but that involves switching wiki engine
11:55 < Not-003> [wiki] Edit by Md 5 to Pre-release protocol -> http://tinyurl.com/qgtruez
11:55 < SinZ> uhh, shouldn't the pre-release protocol be on 13w19b
11:56 < SinZ> 19a*
11:56 <+md_5> SinZ dont think there have been proto changes
11:56 <+md_5> have to check with sir on that
11:56  * SinZ wishs b.wiki.vg would auto-do snapshots again
11:57 <+sadimusi> it only did that for a very brief period of time
11:57 <+sadimusi> most of the time it was just me updating it manually
11:57 <+md_5> anyone got a link to the new archive thing?
11:58 <+md_5> have they started uploading old jars
11:58 <+md_5> (to the mojang s3)
11:58 < SinZ> http://s3.amazonaws.com/Minecraft.Download/versions/versions.json
11:58 <+pdelvo> Apropos. Should we also create a page about the new launcher and how it stores and download data?
11:58 < SinZ> http://s3.amazonaws.com/Minecraft.Download/versions/13w19a/13w19a.jar
11:58 <+md_5> SinZ lovely
11:59 <+md_5> also hate the new launcher
11:59 < SinZ> I like it
12:00 < SinZ> no more java hackery used to launch with icon
12:00 < pbunny> SinZ: aww, whats that?
12:00 < pbunny> minecraft client
12:00 < pbunny> ?
12:01 < SinZ> the launcher doesn't create an applet and wraps the client into it anymore, it just launchs minecraft <3
12:02 <+md_5> least they could do is open source it
12:02 <+sadimusi> wow that thing is ugly
12:04 < pbunny> SinZ: so how do i run it?
12:10 < SinZ> pbunny: by owning minecraft?
12:10 <+md_5> oh snap
12:10 < SinZ> Nothing in the launcher really needs to be closed source yet too
12:11 < pbunny> SinZ: aah, nm
12:11 < pbunny> i thought you said they opensourced minecraft
12:11 < SinZ> well, does show how to read lastlogin files, but people knew that anyway
12:12 <+pdelvo> the password is no longer stored there with the new launcher
12:13 < Stormx2> someone let pbunny's ban expire I see
12:13 < SinZ> launcher still reads it if its present
12:13 < SinZ> but doesn't save
12:13 < SinZ> Stormx2: inorite
12:13 <+pdelvo> We even have the lastlogin file documented: http://wiki.vg/Lastlogin
12:15 < pbunny> Stormx2: was i banned here at all?
12:15 < SinZ> you were banned from freenode, that has to count
12:15 < Stormx2> pbunny, I haven't been here in a while, iirc
12:15 < Stormx2> uhg
12:15 < pbunny> SinZ: ah, that
12:15 < Stormx2> I haven't been here in a while, but iirc you were banned from this channel a few months ago
12:15 < pbunny> Stormx2: no, only from #minecraft iirc
12:17 < Stormx2> Ah fair.
12:18 <+md_5> why were you banned from freenode btw
12:19 < dav1d> ignorance I guess
12:20 <+md_5> first world problems: too many irc channels
12:20 < pbunny> md_5: staff problems
12:20 <+md_5> more like pbunny problems
12:20 <+md_5> > harassing staff prolly
12:20 < pbunny> md_5: no sane person would harass staff
12:21 < Stormx2> Ah you know what it is? SirCmpwn was banned only about 3 days after you arrived. I think I must have conflated you two.
12:21 < pbunny> Stormx2: correct
12:22 <+md_5> freenode_#freenode_20130131.log:[20:10:08] <pbunny> does freenode obey freedom of speech law?
12:22 <+md_5> lol
12:22 < Stormx2> omfg
12:22 <+md_5> freenode_#freenode_20121222.log:[03:01:55] <pbunny> i would like to recommend a rules update.
12:22 <+md_5> freenode_#freenode_20121222.log:[03:02:12] <pbunny> freenode rules.
12:22 <+md_5> freenode_#freenode_20121222.log:[03:02:27] <pbunny> yeah
12:22 <+md_5> freenode_#freenode_20121222.log:[03:02:33] <pbunny> i would like drunken people be forbidden here
12:22 <+md_5> actually laughing
12:22 < Stormx2> Freenode is directly answerable to the US constitution.
12:22 < pbunny> is it #defocus ?
12:22 < pbunny> was *
12:23 <+md_5> freenode_#freenode_20121219.log:[21:48:17] <pbunny> an op of a channel called me idiot and banned for innocent question
12:23  * md_5 wishes he was that op
12:23 < pbunny> i remember the time when 2 mad drunkards flooded channel with talks about bars / beer comparison etc
12:23 < dav1d> and?
12:23 < dav1d> these are some serious converstations
12:23 < pbunny> dav1d: and they distracted interesting conversation we had
12:23 < Stormx2> /part
12:23 < Stormx2> ^ solution
12:23 <+md_5> <pbunny> i'm not saying non-IT people should be klined or something
12:24 < pbunny> md_5: btw, there were several pbunny that weren't me when i was offline
12:24 < pbunny> you should check hostname, too
12:24 < pbunny> and ident
12:24 <+md_5> pbunny really?
12:24 < dav1d> pbunny: what? /ignore
12:24 < pbunny> md_5: yeah
12:24 <+md_5> all with the lulzsec host
12:24 < pbunny> md_5: ident?
12:24 <+md_5> *** Joins: pbunny (~pbunny@stdout.lulzsec.com)
12:24 < dav1d> lol
12:24 < pbunny> md_5: there was not ident, our server didn't run ident service at that time
12:24 < pbunny> so it could be me, or not me
12:24 <+md_5> ident doesnt change that
12:25 <+md_5> if they have access to your server they can presumably modify the ident reply
12:25 < Stormx2> some other classics
12:25 < Stormx2> Mar 07 12:15:54 <Grum>  pbunny: because each player has to have at least 19*16x19*16x256 blocks loaded around itself
12:25 < Stormx2> Mar 07 12:15:58 <pbunny>        LOL
12:25 < Stormx2> Mar 07 12:16:05 <pbunny>        now that's a java thinking
12:25 < Stormx2> Mar 07 12:16:10 <Grum>  pbunny: no its not
12:25 < pbunny> md_5: it does. we have like 1000 users on this server
12:25 < pbunny> any one of them may connect using stdout.lulzsec.host here
12:25 <+md_5> yes
12:25 < pbunny> now we run idents to distinguish between them
12:25 <+md_5> we, 1000 and irc
12:25 <+md_5> big exaggeration mate\
12:25 < pbunny> ?
12:25 < pbunny> md_5: they are mostly non-irc people
12:25 < pbunny> but chance remains
12:26 <+md_5> stop using that pathetic excuse to defend your actions
12:26 < pbunny> md_5: i.e. #gentoo-chat-ru was trolled the hell out by somebody from our server
12:26 <+md_5> also I'd love to see 1000 people on one server
12:26 <+md_5> not even the wikimedia toolserver has that many accounts
12:26 < pbunny> that's what cause misfired klines
12:27 < pbunny> md_5: what's so difficult about having 1000 people on server?
12:27 < pbunny> ( i don't mean 1000 online at same time )
12:27 < pbunny> it's an account count
12:27 <+md_5> where are you going to get 1000 people that want to be on a shitty little server
12:27 < pbunny> :p
12:27 < pbunny> they have reasons
12:28 <+md_5>  <pbunny> operators are not aware of the threat                                         (threat being drunk people)
12:28 < pbunny> md_5: i agree
12:28 < pbunny> md_5: nobody wants drunk people walking on streets and pestering citizens
12:28 < pbunny> why is irc different
12:28 < SinZ> harder to detect on IRC
12:29 <+md_5> speaking of which, why does stdout.lulzsec.com not have a PTR
12:29 < pbunny> SinZ: if it's not detectable - i'm fine with that, situation of #defocus was quite detectable though
12:29 < pbunny> md_5: to make people ask about it
12:29 <+md_5> must have changed dns after logging onto irc
12:29 < dav1d> lol
12:30 < dav1d> drunk are awesome
12:30 < pbunny> dav1d: some drunk morons tried to rape my wife once
12:31 < dav1d> lol
12:31 < pbunny> others smashes my car with something heavy
12:31 < pbunny> left some empty beer bottles 
12:31 <+md_5> http://lulzsec.com/
12:31 < pbunny> drunk man == mad man
12:31 < dav1d> lol
12:32 < Stormx2> RFC1337: Sobriety Detection over IRC
12:32 < dav1d> md_5: ?
12:32 < dav1d> md_5: the domain is on afraid.org, I think
12:32 <+md_5> yeah
12:32 < pbunny> Stormx2: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1337
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12:33 < Stormx2> pbunny, I figured 1337 was already taken - it was a joke ;)
12:33 < Stormx2> Hows your C server coming?
12:35 < pbunny> Stormx2: anonymous.lv:1337
12:35 < pbunny> come and see
12:35 < pbunny> its the second version, compatible with multi-threaded worlds (not enabled now due to mutex issues which i have no time to resolve now)
12:36 < pbunny> registration, login, physics, movements, surrounding-entity-funcs (i.e. dumping, animation showing, ...), basic pvp
12:36 < pbunny> digging, item dropping
12:54 < Stormx2> pbunny, code?
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12:57 < pbunny> Stormx2: http://dpaste.org/u0IDo/
12:57 < pbunny> its worlds/entrance.c , the code for 'login world' that players get at after connect
12:59 < pbunny> http://dpaste.org/iksH9/ - captcha.h , http://dpaste.org/V5Ck1/ - captcha.c
13:00 < pbunny> captcha made of blocks is shown after /register to prevent registration spamming
13:00 < Stormx2> Why don't you put the source on github or another vcs site?
13:00 < pbunny> Stormx2: don't want it to be stolen at some point of time and servers rised from it and took all the pride :)
13:00 < dav1d> lol
13:00 < pbunny> i will release it after my own server will get some attention
13:01 < Stormx2> when will that be?
13:01 < pbunny> maybe 1-2 months
13:01 < pbunny> ah, no. that's when it will be up and stable
13:01 < pbunny> to get attention, some more months will be needed probably
13:02 < Stormx2> You've been working on this for a few months now and I see you've still got world generation code in the same file as packet handlers
13:02 < pbunny> Stormx2: no.
13:02 < pbunny> packet handlers are in handlers.c
13:02 < pbunny> these handlers are world-specific
13:02 < pbunny> they are processed only when player is in this particular world
13:03 < Stormx2> http://dpaste.org/u0IDo/#L426
13:03 < Stormx2> What's that?
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13:03 < pbunny> Stormx2: reads next 4 bytes from received data, converts them to int and incs the received data pointer by 4
13:04 < Stormx2> <Stormx2> You've been working on this for a few months now and I see you've still got world generation code in the same file as packet handlers
13:04 < pbunny> Stormx2: i don't see problems in putting several world-specific packet handlers in world's source file
13:04 <+pdelvo> There it is: http://wiki.vg/Protocol#Player_Digging_.280x0E.29
13:04 < pbunny> if there were 50 handlers, i would separate it
13:04 < Stormx2> well
13:05 < pbunny> Stormx2: also that's second version of server, first one already has everything but mobs / metaentities implemented
13:05 < Stormx2> The usually approach is to have a module with a well-defined interface that handles all network-specific stuff
13:05 < Stormx2> Stuff that uses it doesn't need to know exactly how co-ordinates or w/e are stored on-the-wire
13:05 < pbunny> Stormx2: its interface is well defined
13:06 < Stormx2> It's not. You're mixing networking code with application logic.
13:06 < pbunny> also its better optimised that way
13:06 < pbunny> Stormx2: read_int() read_byte() ... are pretty obvious and easy to use
13:06 <+pdelvo> premature optimization is the root of all evil
13:06 < pbunny> packetok() tells handlers handler that packet is processed and passes processed bytes number to it
13:06 < Stormx2> pbunny, and they should be used /within an object that deals with those types/
13:06 < pbunny> so it can process next packet
13:06 < pbunny> within object?
13:07 < Stormx2> Yes. You have a "SocketListener" class/object/etc that fires a callback when it receives a packet.
13:07 < Stormx2> The callback doesn't need to know the format, ordering, or data-types of the packet
13:07 < dav1d> fibres!
13:07 < Stormx2> those are handled in a single place (with a clean interface)
13:07 < dav1d> and libev
13:07 < pbunny> Stormx2: and how to pass data read from packet?
13:07 < dav1d> but I think he prefers threads
13:07 < pbunny> build up arrays of arguments?
13:08 <+pdelvo> the callback gives you an reference to the object fired it which holds that data
13:08 < pbunny> Stormx2: there is no optimized way of variable-arguments-count callbacks in C afaik
13:08 < pbunny> pdelvo: and how to hold it?
13:08 < pbunny> in array?
13:08 < pbunny> why?
13:08 <+pdelvo> fields
13:09 < pbunny> pdelvo: create a struct with field for every packet's possible field?
13:09 < pbunny> pdelvo: i don't see how it will be any more useful
13:09 < Stormx2> uhg
13:09 < pbunny> pdelvo: or maybe create a struct for every possible packet?
13:09 <+pdelvo> except for making your code mentainable
13:09 < pbunny> pdelvo: its maintainable
13:10 <+md_5> pbunny quick question
13:10 < pbunny> handler reads packet continuously and parses it
13:10 <+md_5> what is the point of making an MC server if you cannot play on it?
13:10 < Stormx2> or if no-one will use it..
13:10 < pbunny> md_5: glory, money, mazeratti, hot chicks, villa
13:10 < Stormx2> What's the point of making a 3rd party server at all?